True, most of the arrow cost on the broker is just how much it costs to make the arrows. And that means all those woodworkers aren't making money from selling those arrows anyway. So that can't be an excuse for making rangers pay so much for their autoattacks.
15s x 100 = 1500s = 15g You are suggesting that it costs 15g per combine to make arrows? I don't have a woodworker, but I have an alchemist and jeweler. It does not cost 15g to make 10 regular poisons. You have a reduced fuel cost of 2 fuels on the combine. As for the materials, most people are using guild harvesters. It is not the end of the world to shell out a couple extra plat a day on arrows, but it isn't really fair either. I do not make a couple extra plat on raids. If bounty were passive like pickpocket for rogues I might. Then of course we would be the only poison scout not getting a few extra plat per raid, so it still wouldn't be fair. In order for it to be fair one of two things need to happen: 1) Rangers get a way to not have to pay for good arrows. or 2) Mages begin using components, priests begin consuming candles and holy water, and fighters and rogues begin using sharpening stones to keep their blades keen. If this happens though, you should allow all of these classes to take some AAs out of useful things and put them into some other AAs that will reduce their usage of these necessities a little bit. You might even take one of their enervated's current buffs and change it into a cost reduction... just to be fair to them. Life is not fair, so I'll live with it. It is, however, a stupid mechanic.
Aldhissla wrote: They already complain because they can't create full stacks of whatever they're making in combine and are repeatedly asking for it. When considering usage I don't think they need to create full stacks like a woodworker does for arrows, but that argument gets lost. Khurghan wrote: The problem with your argument is that on most servers this isn't the case. If I'm forced to pay 20g per 100 arrows, 3g and some change is for the fuel, the remaining 16-17g is to cover cost of materials and the only one of which generally over 1g in price are the bamboo shoots. Maybe on your server they're using sensible prices, the majority of servers they're not though. Unfortunately when part of the problem is server economy, it's hard to get some people to notice where one problem is since they may not see it on their server, though the base problem is that No other class has to pay as much to do dps on a regular basis. Poisons, and temp adorns don't count since they're used across several classes at roughly similar costs to each class.
WW have totems if they want to make money, seriously there are some very nice ones out there, and even the lower tier ones can still be very useful.
Don't most woodworkers make house items to sell? The arrow useage in eq2 is the highist i have ever seen in any MMO. Alot of MMO's now adays are doing away with arrows because of the annoyance factor. As for all the Realism people, if you can pretend you are a elf you can pretend you are using "arrows" and making them during down time.
Helrazor wrote: EQ wasn't over powered at all it was the combo of EQ/AM3 at the time of a luclin exp they wear doing to much dps.
eq2 has a market to buy and sell goods and services. removing the need for it would in fact hurt the game, it makes sense leave it as it is. at least they fixed it so your CA's don't use ammo.
I wouldn't mind seeing weaponsmiths also gain access to the ranged ammo recipes. That would provide another source of ammo, which should theoritically increase supply and lower prices. It'd also provide something for weaponsmiths, who could really use it. Now, yeah, woodworkers might complain because arrows are wood, but then, they currently make throwing knives and those are not wood, typically all metal. Another possibility would be the equivelant of the priests' ability to summon food and drink. Free arrows, but crappy.
So Rangers have to pay to cause their DPS. Well, suck it up. I really hate this playing field that has to be so level that you have to put a spirit level on every single blade of grass. Dont like it? Reroll. I play a Ranger and accept its part of the class. I dont want to be a clone of another class I didnt want to play - which seems to be the intent of the broader player base. I want to play a class that is unique and different for better or worse.
Axterix wrote: They tried that with makeshift arrows, the only problem was the arrows were so inferior to crafted arrows and even vendor bought arrows it wasn't worth it to use except when leveling really.
FYI it costs 3g12s to make a stack of T9 arrows, if you harvest what you need and buy the fuel. Guy De Alsace wrote: If you are really saying you would take a negative just so you can be unique, that's just dumb. Would you cut off your nose to spite your face too? Saying we would be like other classes if we didn't have to pay for auto attack is just ridiculous. The fact that some of our best performing CA's are melee, opposed to our ranged CA's being better than ALL our melee, does make us more like other scout classes though. Everything other scouts have to buy we have to buy too, plus we go through way more arrows than they do. So any argument from the stance other scouts have to pay for stuff too comes from ignorance. We do save some money on poisons with conservation but it doesn't make up for how much we spend on arrows. Summoned makeshift arrows were abysmal. Compared to other arrows in the same tier they were always the absolute worst arrows you could use. Even vendor bought ones were better. My main problem with it is we have to pay, and we aren't even on par with the other top DPS classes. Wouldn't be much a problem if we were. Same thing with the other mechanical faults we have like not using auto AE or flurry. If we were on par with DPS they would just be annoyances but since rangers are behind the problems are viewed as much worse. Every minor problem rangers have is going to be focused on and magnified, even blown out of proportion until we are balanced properly, or at least close to it.
Guy De Alsace wrote: I would have no problem paying for it if it was worth the price, but seeing as how rangers do less DPS then assassins and sorcs, offer less utility, and still have to pay to do it, well then it just isn't fair anymore. Personally I would rather see them keep us having to use arrows, but make it actually worthwhile IE we are equal if not slightly ahead of the other classes we are supposed to be competing against
Guy De Alsace wrote: Since when does class balance mean that every class is the same? Those are two different things you're conflating there. Bottom line, ammo management does not have any place in an MMO, UNLESS it is something that every single class uses roughly equally, and therefore every single class bears the expense. That doesn't mean every single class is the same. Rangers not having to pay for arrows isn't changing anything the ranger does, or any flavor of the class. Please drop the ridiculous hyperbole. Having to pay for ammunition as your primary source of damage is unbalanced, whether you're paying 1c or 3pp. Having to pay for it when you are doing half the damage of other DPS classes is insult on top of injury. The end.
I'm trying to remember which game it was, but my mind's drawing blank. Part of me wants to say LotRO, though it could be something else. But I'm remembering a game where ammo wasn't consumed but was a gear piece that went in the ammo slot. So you could loot (or craft) better ammo, but not have one single class rely on paying constantly to do their job when no other class has to do so. This would still give woodworkers something to craft and sell, but rangers wouldn't be paying a couple plat a night to do their job. Quivers wouldn't be needed then? Well, golly, how about opening up quivers (and possibly renaming them) to hold other crafted consumables? I'm sure everyone would love some extra slots for the stacks of potions, poisons, food, drink, temp adorns, tinkered consumables like FD clickies, etc... Another game has a lovely middle ground solution. All classes able to use ranged weapons except rangers use either vendor bought or crafted arrows/throwing stars. But rangers get their own special class arrow combines, using their own special class foraged components. These ranger class specific arrows are perfectly competitive or even a little better in some ways. These special class combines also create rather huge stacks (250 vs EQ2's 100), so it doesn't take ages to get the ammo needed for a week's worth of fighting. Crafters still make arrows for every other class in the game that can use arrows, and rangers, again, don't pay a couple plat a night to do their job. (Bonus points if you know this craptastic game that still somehow had some rather nice specific features.) Again, I say this having a woodworker myself. I know quite well how much cash woodworkers can bring in from rangers. I really don't care. There are plenty of other things to sell, like totems (or potential non-consumable arrow bundles were that to be implemented.) Those new T9 totems are nice and sell just fine. Also, as others have said, the cost in time or money from going through so many arrows per day wouldn't be such an issue if the resulting dps weren't lower than that of classes who get to do their jobs for free. As it is, it's just insulting. If a class paying a couple plat a night to do their job is so great for the game, then really, why not have every class pay a couple plat a night to do their job? Weaponsmiths could rake in the cash from all other melee classes with sharpening stones, and sages or tailors (medicine bags, anyone?) could make a profit off mages and priests. Just sayin'. Don't like that concept? Then why is it okay for rangers?
Well let rangers summon arrows of moderate quality, they could be like 10% inferior to Woodworkers ones.
You know whats funny...today a fabled throwing weapon, from the hole raidzone, was linked in the ranger channel that summones 99 fabled dagger every 5min, sooner with reuse, which have stats that are rivals the crafted spirit blessed arrows. Why is no WW compalining about not selling throwing weapons....... This game is so biased towards rangers...its not even funny anymore
Why must ranger summoned arrows be 10% less than the standard? Do other classes do 10% less if they pay nothing? No. They pay nothing and get to do full damage. Unless all other classes perform at 10% less than normal unles they pay for consumables, this is still not right. Why is this still acceptable for rangers but not every other class in the game?
