Elemental Toxicity

You wouldn't need to lower the range of it, it could easily be made like Unda where it only hits targets that are engaged. If you were to take the damage that etox currently gives to each group and straight add it to the summoners parse vs just having an ae that did that it wouldn't change anything except lower the lag issues.

That damage amount is ridiculous on any player at this stage, even the best geared. It definitely shouldn't do as much group wide DPS as it does now but shifted to just the summoner, that would be nuts and completely out of whack with how every ability has been designed at this point. If they are suggesting a massive overhaul where all group procs get shifted to just the caster with relatively the same amount of DPS that would be one thing, but to do it with only one ability is just wrong.

To suggest people should just stop caring about their own parse and be glad the raid wide DPS is high when the current damage is just shifted to the summoner is just being purposely obtuse. The repercussions of just a handful of classes doing an extremely high amount of DPS are numerous. We can already see some of those effects just with hemotoxin doing abnormally high DPS for assassins.

I know a lot of AE's are balanced where if there is only 1-2 targets its DPS potential is less than ideal and only starts showing good results with 3 or more targets. It almost meets sniper shot in damage on one target (if spec'd for sniper to hit twice) and quickly dwarfs it with 2 targets or just being double casted on one target. Never mind its recast is half of sniper shot. Granted its an endline so it should have some more 'punch' to it, but it would still need to be brought down to about 1/3 of its current damage if all other factors remained the same and it would still do extremely well, especially with the potential of 12 targets.

I think people would prefer its max targets be brought down to at least 8 to maintain more of its damage potential on smaller fights.

I agree with Daray that this does show some interesting results concerning putting abilities on test in a very 'rough' form. Lowering its damage wouldn't be a 'nerf' because its not even live yet, its all just feedback and balancing.

Given Unda's specific coding is probably the reason why it doesn't proc anything (an assumption on my part), you probably wouldn't want that. Or maybe you do, I don't know. Besides, there's no reason for a 20m radius (on a targeted blue) because that translates into something like a 50m diameter with enhanced resonance only.

I don't know why people keep bringing this up. Summoners currently hitting ETox (in the scenarios it is designed for) cost their raids more dps than ETox even generates. Whatever ETox ends up becoming, it will be a gain to the raidwide bottom line, regardless of whether it even does damage or not.


Anywho, it appears that I am starting to repeat myself - pretty sure I have said everything that I wanted to say on the matter anyway.

One thing to consider theoretically - In it's current form, Etox doesn't stack when multiple summoners use it in the same group. To say that Etox should still give all the damage it "maybe someday could have given if not for lag", credit it ALL to the summoner, and ALSO remove the strategic requirement of not double stacking them (yes, I know most raids don't stack summoners) while also allowing it to trigger procs, you've essentially created the alpha ability.

ETox should be good. But not lolololololbestabilityingame. If it were made to be similar in overall power and strength to abilities like apocalypse/fusion/assassinate/snipershot and summoners would already be getting more than enough of a boost to sufficiently compete on all encounter types. In fact, simply making it that good would likely put summoners on top, other than for really short burn fights. As it is, summoners do just fine on single target and need a bit of AOE love.

So from a pure balance perspective, the numbers on Etox are way too high.

Aren't you the same wizard that argued in the past to expand Fusion's cone? And that Rays should be an AOE? So the lesson of these posts appears to be to snipe any putative increase to the DPS of other classes, while arguing to maximize your own? I see your old posts stating that Fusion's damage is too low, Rays' damage is too low; but when locks were trying to get changes made to negative void, you took the time to post that wizzy numbers only "appeared" to be high due to certain buffs not being applied "equally" to both classes, once again repeating your now-familiar mantra of class balance. (See, e.g., http://archive.eq2wire.com/showthread.php?t=523226). I watched Dennis Rodman clean the boards in Chicago, so I know what good boxing out looks like - well done, sir. The only balance in which you appear to be interested is one weighed in your favor.

Moreover, comparing summoner spells with sorcerer spells is inherently misleading. Summoners do not build increments like warlocks, causing what appears to be X damage from the face of the spell description to extrapolate to Y after taking into account the effects of temp buffs/spells not available at all to summoners, such as freehand sorcery, catalyst, focused casting, increments, or the insane damage multipliers in the heroic line. So the bare statement, for example, that ET = 2.33x Apocalypse per target is intentionally obtuse, because I recognize you are too smart to make a mistake comparing two such dramatically different things, with so many other variables that you do not take into account as to make the comparison you assert to be meaningless. Not to mention that the manner in which locks work now requires (apparently) that they get every available buff in the mage group (and double that on Sundays, plus a cookie), as well as draconian control over the timing of the spells of support classes, so summoners are starting out of the gate even further behind.

The bottom line is that summoner DPS needs an upwards tweak, especially on AOE fights. ET causes lag, so raid leaders don't want it cast. For necros, their "class-defining" spell, vampirism, is utterly worthless, and likely not on anyone's hotbar, much less in a spell rotation. Stats aren't shared with pets, so summoners miss out on a good percentage of their gear affecting their DPS. LB has become almost obsolete, and the conjy "version", EB, is effected by time warp when LB is not. Only one of the summoners' 4 pets works in any useful manner. And summoners keep getting AA choices (blood pact, shift of death) that involve some type of pet protect that we don't need because pets are not dying constantly in raid; sheesh even the proc on the war of essence charm for summoners was a pet protect, as if there were not at least two others already available. And that's just the tip of the iceberg on summoner issues.

The proposed improvement to ET, or change to the ability, and the proposed AI improvements, are needed steps in the right direction of addressing the DPS tweaks needed by summoners, so I applaud the devs for coming up with those creative solutions. If you don't mind, and with all due respect, please go rain on someone else's parade.

As "lolololololbestabilityingame" as this? YHGTBFKM.

It would easily match if not destroy most classes best single target abilities, then it gets multiplied by the amount of targets. Even IF summoners needed this much more DPS top loading it on to one ability is a terrible idea. If you think this is okay I really don't know what to say.

A net boost in DPS, in that the new version of ET does more for the casting summoner than the current version does for the same summoner is fine, perhaps even needed. But those current numbers are INSANE.

Really this is all moot though because I know its damage will be tuned downward because its just preliminary. Whats going to be unfortunate is people think it got 'nerfed' from 'whining.'

Logic Strike 1) Apocalypse is not really used to generate increments. Because half the time you use it when you have max increments so it is insta-cast.
Logic Strike 2) Summoners compete with Sorcerers on single target parses even while Sorcerers "get all the buffs"
Logic Strike 3) Draconian control over "utility buffs" hasn't mattered since the double cast ring in wing 3 of ToV entered loot tables.

That is 3 already, but let's keep going.

Logic Strike 4) Small changes would be enough to make Summoners beat Sorcerers on single target encounters. This change to Etox would make them beat Sorcerers on all encounters. This change and the introduction of an AOE-effective pet goes one step further.

Logic Strike 5) YHGTBFKM stands for either an implied obscenity or for "Yellow Hands Get the Bacon for Kevin Malone". I have no idea what fetching a pork product for a character from the now defunct "The Office" series has to do with this thread.

Logic Strike 6) Posting a 40 second lol luck parse here 50% of my Toxic Assault hits were fabled crits and and over 65% of my Plaguebringer hits were legendary crits suggests you might be unaware of why/how this can happen, and why/how this can't be reproduced on 2 minute fights, much less 10 minute fights.

CounterStrike 1: ORLY?



Reading comprehension strike 1: no one stated or even implied that apocalypse generates increments. The rhetorical technique of misrepresenting what the other party stated, then mocking them for the statement you claimed they made, but didn't, only works on some people some of the time, and the rest of the people, not so much.

I agree that summoners can, at times, complete on single target fights with sorcs.

"George Bush II" Strike 1 (/or the Joe the Plumber Strike): Maybe all you "high end" and "hardcore" raiders have the double cast ring, but I doubt that most raiders do, so what may be anachronistic and unnecessary to you, might not be to some. My best guess is that a higher percentage of raiders did not clear wing 3 of TOV, than did clear wing 3 of TOV. Or are you referring to the DT ring? It doesn't matter, I guess. I would like to see if you are still wearing it, but you appear to have hidden your EQ2U entry, so I can't tell. I wonder why you did that?

Semantic strike 1: Not sure that I agree that YHGTBFKM is an "obscenity". It stands for "You have got to be freaking kidding me," which, in my jurisdiction, would not likely be characterized as an obscene statement. But we can agree to disagree on that issue.

"The internetz will get you every time, especially when you like to show everyone how 1337URingame" Strike 1: "why/how this can't be reproduced on 2 minute fights." See Counter Strike 1.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Thank you, come again.
(Raptor sounds resonate through the store as the camera fades to black.....)

You have become better at Trolling (253/500).

My verdict: Mildly entertaining. Would read again.

This thread is a perfect example of why not to put something to Test that is clearly not tuned. It just degenerates into an entitled crowd trying to defend something that even they know is out of balance. Btw, is there a petition somewhere that I can sign to get PoM turned into the best AE ability in the game?

I love being a summoner and I agree we need a buff but come on guys... if you dont think etox in its current form isn't op as all get out I just dont know what to say. I love it being a targeted blue, I wouldn't mind its being a 10m radius from the target. I haven't raided seriously in a long time so maybe im off base, but I actually agree with Daray, and before you jump down my throat he has a point. Etox causes crazy lag, you can't just say that dps it should have been doing should be added to the summoner. I would prefer a faster recast with the dmg scaled down lower so I can use it more so I agree with a base of 1 min and a recast of 30 with max reuse.

I dont have a opinion on 12 target vs 8, both are fine to me and I could go either way. All I know is im super excited that summoners are finally getting a healthy dose of love and that for me at least any change to etox is going to be better then what we got now.

So this is simple... summoners getting an apparently overpowered blue aoe.

Wiz/warlocks coming in and saying it needs to be nerfed.

Got it.

Other dps classes trying to come into summoner threads and beat the proposed fixes down again as if those old dps tiers were still relevant...I see nothing has changed. Get over the "summoners are utility" mindset, we can and should be t1 dps. We have no justifiable utility to keep us below sorcs or preds on parses.
This is a needed change to tox and no, making it only do debuffs and deagro is not going to cut it. Will they adjust damage on it? Absolutely, it's the artist formerly known as SOE and that's what they do to summoners, but it should keep it's 12 target limit and it shouldn't be lowered in damage by too much, otherwise it'll be thrown into the scrap pile with lifeburn and vampirism.

1) Well shoot.

I guess if you don't even know what you just wrote, we're going to have a hard time making this constructive.

2) Sorcerers and Summoners should be sitting at or above 50 SDA in EM Raid gear. Even without the ring. This by itself makes any sort of draconian utility commanding silly and overbearing. I am sorry the bad sorcerer in your group is ruining your raid experience friend. But just because someone crapped in your cheerios doesn't mean you still have to eat it.

3) If you think doing 4 million less damage against 4x the targets in any way "reproduces" the 50 million Perador parse, then I believe we have more of a disagreement regarding numbers than can be fully extrapolated in this thread. Of course, you've already suggested that my arguments are not valid due to being "high end/hardcore" because such data would not reflect the norm, yet you somehow feel obsessed with using my parses as if they were... the norm. So I guess if I had to cite my disagreements with you, I could summarize them in the following words:

Memory loss (forgetting what you wrote)
Your decision to eat the Cheerios (after what the sorcerers in your guild appear to be doing to them)
Math (your belief that if 4x = 46million and 1y = 50million, then x=y)
Logic (your belief that if X is not relevant, X must be relevant)

This needs to be full-on tested with a raid guild. Not likely to happen :-(

I see many more classes than that here. It really can't be nerfed since it isn't even on live yet, it hasn't even got a balance pass on test. Its basically a place holder which is why I am not terribly worried about it, more worried about some of these expectations. Personally I expect it to lose about 60-70% of its damage.

I agree, they need to pull a full raid in and gear them equally to see how it actually sits in a raid environment, also vary the encounters from single to multi-mob (it's not often you encounter linked mobs of 12). Until then we're randoms chiming in on assumptions.

Wish there was more aggressiveness from sorcerers and rangers saying the same about poisons....now that is what is OP in the game and is live right now.

So cute to see sorcs and rangers waving nerf bats on this thread. I hope devs realize these are desperate people trying to ruin it for others to keep their epeens in good condition.

You are absolutely right, but it doesn't even approach the damage this version of ET would put out.

Currently Hemotoxin, the OP poison in question, is performing incorrectly due to a bug with multiple scouts using them that is proving difficult to nail down. While I would love to see the poison put in check, doing so before finding this bug could prove problematic since it would probably have to be tweaked multiple times before the bug is found and then afterwards. Lots of compounding work instead of just fix the bug, lower the damage, done.

Can't be a nerf, its not even live. Maybe I should put that in my sig.

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