Mosha DKhan wrote: Because the people saying things which are completely untrue like yourself are doing a great job helping others right? Fact is as long as people like you exist there will be people like me to point out to you that you are wrong, stop crying about it and live with it, I would think you would be used to it by now.
BChizzle wrote: Unlike you, I don't make stuff up. Below are two avoidance reports. The first is from several pulls with me tanking the first two names in Miragul's. I merged only the named fights. The second is me tanking Gynok. In both cases, I was in defensive, with tanking gear. I had 41% minimum deflection and ~22.5K overall avoidance (displays as about 92% against level 80). I had a 3.0% riposte adornment on my offhand weapon and one 3.0% parry adornment on a wrist. 2.2% parry food and 2.2% dodge drink. I was hitting tsunami in each case every time it was up, with alacrity or jesters. Miragul's: Gynok: So, looking these over, the one part it's a little hard to account for is the influence of Tsunami. Certainly, the large number of ripostes in each case is in no small part a result of it's being up often. What is clear, though, is that contested avoidance did very, very little for me. My deflection results in each case were about 1/2 of the displayed minimum deflection number. If you also assume for a moment that the "uncontested" numbers from the adornments and food/drink were about 50% effective, that means that about 1.5% of my ripostes, ~2.5% of my parries and 1% of my dodges were from those uncontested sources. Laying aside the ripostes, due to tsunami, you have about 4% parry from contested parry and 1% dodges from contested dodge. Or . . . about the 5% I mentioned before. So, there's a small sample of my data. Where's your data for the 30-40% avoidance you supposedly get when tanking in offensive gear?
Rythalian@Crushbone wrote: Nowhere on your parses does it say contested avoidance is less then 5% keep trying.
BChizzle wrote: My turn to call BS. You pulled your 30-40% numbers out of your nether regions and have posted no back up. You can disagree with numbers, but I posted my data and analysis. I am done with you. If others want to discuss this, I am happy to.
Rythalian@Crushbone wrote: LOL, quite simply I told you how to check your contested avoid numbers, I am not going to do all the work for you because me posting an avoidance report here means little or nothing, people like you have to see it for yourselves, so go tank those same mobs in offensive let me know what your avoid is, or how about this, why don't you just look at one of your plate tanks avoidance numbers next time they are DW tanking, either way both prove my point.
Dredful@Unrest wrote: Honestly this guy needs help, I mean seriously he's tanking mobs without any type of avoid check on him from either a templar or another tank, but you know having the last word is important when someone who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about is trying to spread misinformation.
obviously avoidance works as intended. We can have 92% avoidance and still hit 65%. Hell i had 85% avoidance against Leviathen (doesn't have strikethrough) and still wasn't getting 70% avoidance. Spamming tsunami and dodge and weave/Masters avoidance every time it was up. ON a 17min fight time. You know how many of those i got off?
BChizzle wrote: lol i think it is funny i tried the spec bchizzle said for AE agro and still had a hard time to keep agro on group mobs. that and my dps did not increase what so ever. so not sure why you think it is better than what others may have, but it is not. just accept that you maybe wrong every now and again.
Mosha DKhan wrote: Stop lying, it is absolutely stupid for you to say having an ae auto attack and an ae proc didnt improve your ae agro.
Ry, I don't want to get in between you and B on this but I think you are referencing uncontested avoidance when you want to be refering to contested. Just something I noticed when you said uncontested didn't mean much. Just wondering if you meant that or it was a typo because it was in a few of your post. Also, in your chart even if you credit all your deflection and riposte to uncontested unavoidance, the contested portion is still bigger than 5%. Now I think you were just exaggerating with the 5% but once you throw a number out it is out there. No big deal, its not 30% just bigger than 5%.
BChizzle wrote: well i guess i must be lying if my 6.6k dps in my normal AA spec is less than my 5.3k dps in you set up...... agro did not improve the wiz it fusion halfway in the fight and took agro. now it may help monks because of self haste but for a bruiser it sucks. had to use everything i had to pull it back. the AE proc does not do much because it only hits 4 out of 25 hits or 16% does not do much when i hit every 2.2 secs. so start explaining why you think it is so much better than others.
Mosha DKhan wrote: Precisely. The ones who make it look so easy either had the top of the line gear, and in specific hardcore raid guilds to gain it. For the typical raider in the game, they'll acquire gear that their guild (or they can get into) raids, which often isn't on par as they don't progress as fast. They'll also dance around these threads insulting folks who don't have their gear (surprise, surprise, surprise because they're not invited on raids...you can't get the gear unless you are, and if you're in a smaller or a casual guild, good luck on finding x4 raids weekly[and if you're a certain unwanted class, you're in casual guilds because they'll take every class, which raid guilds will not]), and hurl insults like that will save SoE from responsibility of making some of the most unbalanced and broken classes in gaming...I have NEVER played a game that is so class broken, nor so discriminatory per class than EQ2. It's the #1 pet peeve I have of EQ2 -- deny access not on abilities just gear and class. Just seeing the title of this thread is simply sad. Sad that EQ2 became like this, sad that players who really enjoy their class have to sit on the sidelines as devs only concentrate on one class per expansion. People pick classes for their mains because it's what THEY like to play, they don't want to keep rolling the "latest flavor" just to play. Bad and broken game design.
Kigneer wrote: This is such a lie, we are on the same server and I see plenty of undergeared players get in raids and raidguilds. Hell with the state of the game right now undergeared and untalented players are more and more in end game guilds just due to the fact that their is less of a talent pool to draw from. All I see from you is QQ about things you NEVER try, I have NEVER seen you in 79 chat looking for a raid. As far as this guy goes he is complaining about ae agro yet he doesn't listen on how to play his toon from better players then him, he must be an expert because while the rest of us enjoy our class and tank fine as evidence with the amount of people here talking about how a brawler can tank. As I have always said you guys always complain about the wrong things and then you wonder why a dev can't figure out how to make our class better.
Dorieon@Unrest wrote: You are absolutely right. There was a typo in the conclusion of my post with the avoidance parses where I said "uncontested" and meant "contested." I edited it in the post. Thanks for pointing it out. As to the numbers, my 5% number is probably at the low end, but I don't think crazily so. You have to make estimates based on what we know are the uncontested amounts - minimum deflection and the "caster will parry/riposte/dodge x% of incoming attacks" on adornments and food/drink. Tsunami and bob and weave also give uncontested avoidance checks (100% riposte for tsunami, 50% dodge and 50% parry for bob and weave). I admit it's hard to break the numbers down. I will, however, stand by the analysis and my consistent observation that my actual avoidance against TSO raid names is usually uncontested avoidance + 5% or so. At the end of the day, fighting about the exact numbers is not the point. The point is that, for survivability, uncontested avoidance is more important than contested. Maximize your minimum deflection, get your adornments, etc. I would be remiss if I didn't point out that maximizing mitigation, and perhaps using a ward-proc item or two is also very important. Even at very, very high avoidance numbers, relying on it is dangerous. It's still subject to streaks and spikes that can kill us. Mitigation and wards help reduce those spikes and help our survivability.
BChizzle wrote: Look... The description given by Kigneer sounds about accurate for many brawlers - It's exceedingly simple to understand why. When's the last time your guild went out of their way to recruit a new brawler B? I mean I suppose that with them having you around there's not much point keeping a second? How many other classes would that be true for? And while it's not impossible to get on raids as a monk, if you "go fish" for pickup raids, as a brawler, you end up as filler. Just like most other fighters really. I don't know how pickup or casual raids work on your end, but here it's usually at least most of the MT group established looking for more - and who is going to pick a monk they do not know for OTing, if they can take a zerker or an SK? It's the nature of the beast. Some of us are in raid guilds (were in raid guilds in my case); we don't really have this problem. Hard numbers were posted on "that other site", though, counting classes in top-end raid guilds. You can argue mechanics if you want, but the numbers do speak for themselves. For whatever reason (I'd argue mechanics, you're welcome to say player perception), brawlers happen to be the least sought-after fighter subclass in these raid guilds. But it's not like I'm telling you something new here, is it? I do not know what Kigneer does or does not do, but calling what he's saying stupid is paramount to ignorance. As for bad game design, let's just start with the fact that the game has 24 different classes. I mean, I'd hold the imbalances against current design decisions and whatnot, but the classes have been set up like this from launch, and it's the source of so many of the problems we're seeing. Going over that point once again is old hat, but that does not make it incorrect. As for complaining about the wrong things, hasn't it been well enough established over the course of this expansion that one of the core problems here is that brawlers, as a class, lack a fundamental role that spans the entirety of content, not to mention a unity of vision within the playerbase? If so, then why exactly does it surprise anyone that complaints are lacking a specific focus? I can understand "we're not really that bad off" rhetorics. I disagree, but that's because I do not like the direction of the monk class as per tSO launch - I suppose that's just me. But saying "monks are fine, just deal with it" is exactly as misleading as the "help us, the sky is falling" nonsense.
Siatfallen wrote: I stopped right here, no sense in reading your post much like most of your posts it is filled with double talk and uniformed blabber. Kigneer is a PALI. You don't even play anymore, but I'll tell you what any point you can try and make is undone by the fact that the top guild on your server has multiple brawlers that raid regularily, we can go down the list if you like to and guess what most guilds have a brawler.
BChizzle wrote: if you would have read his post is says that at most a guild will carry 1. you stating that guilds run with multiple brawlers is wrong. everyone has their alt brawler, but none really have a main brawler. i know that when i am not on, in my guild there is not other person that plays a brawler as there main. and most of the time when i am not on they avoid things that require a brawler for that very reason. you are still looking at it 1 sided.
Mosha DKhan wrote: The whole 'there is only room for one brawler in a raid' arguement is old and has run its course. Most serious raid guilds will only carry 1 guard, or 1 SK/Zerk/Pally as well. The ones who do have multiples of an archtype (pally/sk) either have two very good players or can't find someone else. Guilds may roll with 2 crusaders as mt/ot for the ae agro but most don't. The guilds with extra fighter mains also are not taking more than 2-3 fighters on a raid so the other guys are sitting or playing alts until another fighter is needed. While I do agree there are certain small tweaks needed, I fail to see the problem with only 1 or 2 brawler mains in a raid guild. If your guard isn't on is there another person that has a guard main in guild? And Ry, I 100% agree that uncontested is the vast majority of our raid avoidance and that people who don't use +mit and ward items are far less successful tanks.
