I was trying to imply that even plate tanks that gear/spec for strictly dps concerns will not tank as effectively either. I remember sk's that where so focused on gearing/ speccing for dps that when it was time to actually do what they are intended to do and be a tank they failed horrendously. The same happens to brawlers daily.
Half the reason most grps or raids don't wanna have the brawlers in grps with them is because they have either had a brawler that couldn't play their toon properly in grp b4 and sucked at it OR and this is the main reason they have HEARD all the people saying about how we suck including the people who play the brawlers saying that. Yeah OK we may not be as great as some classes but we do still have some good uses and yes while I would like to see something more done with our classes to make us one or the other I don't sit around wondering and complaining about I get out there and keep doing wat I do best and thats going in there and beating the crap out of the mobs and bosses lol and I still manage to get in raids etc in fact I'm still wanted more than most pallys, berserkers etc and its because I go in there and just do my hardest. So stop complaining and just start trying to help each other more with wat specs are better etc and wat gear could benefit better etc and I'm talking about all gear not just raiding gear, so come on everyone show the brawlers you have some love instead of always asking everyone else to show you some love
Honestly, I like the role that we have now and do not think it should be changed. The biggest reason I have enjoyed playing the Monk class is that we are able to DPS well and tank well. I don't mind being a little bit of an underdog classwise as long as we are able to keep what we are now. But I do agree that we do need a little upgrading, but nothing so drastic as to be overpowered as some have said or to be all tank or all dps as others have said. I have tried pure dps classes and pure tank classes and neither of them are very exciting to me, which is what drew me into the monk class in the first place, you can do both fairly well. I personally think that some of the AAs that we've gotten were a step in the right direction. Removing the stun from Iron Stance was very helpful in eliminating some of the mitigation problems we've been experiencing in the past, and our two final abilities have helped out with some hate issues as well as giving us a handy second avoidance buff when we need it. Personally, I was kind of disappointed that some of the proposed Brawler/Monk changes were not implemented since the fighter revamp never went live. I think the 40% heal from Meditative healing would have done a lot for the occasional problems we have with spike damage and I think that Crane Twirl needs to be upgraded into something more than it is now. Really, having more damage and an increased proc chance from it or changing it to a good chance of having our auto attack effect multiple targets would solve most of the problems we have with multiple mob encounters. These things would make us more desirable to have around as tanks or as dps in groups. But I really don't think we are in quite that dire straits that some think we are. Overall a couple of upgrades in the aoe dps department and a couple of ways to compensate for taking damage and we should be fine.
Mosha DKhan wrote: Ok, because no one has ever explained this to you (and yet you still talk like you know). Deflection and Deflection Chance are totally different skills. Yes they both work off of the deflection skill but deflection is a flat increase, it says +5 you get +5....normal avoidance. All that avoidance is great until you fight a mob over level 80 (or whatever lvl you may be). Its normally fine for herioc content, but if you think it doesn't help on level 85+ mobs you are wrong.After that it diminishes and the only avoidance that matters is +deflection/parry/riposte CHANCE. The chance part of that statement means that it is included even against mobs higher level than you (whether you are are 50 or 80) thats why it is better. No it will not give you a huge boost in your avoid window (unless your avoid is already really low) but it does increase total avoidance against higher level mobs, which will make you a better tank in this expansion. PS. Would I totally blow your mind if I told you there was Deflection, Deflection Chance and Minimum Deflection Chance?
Dorieon@Unrest wrote: so it is still contested? in which case like everyone is telling me (because i am a noob apperently) is not worth getting it. so if that is so then why are you all wanting it? your telling me i dont know what i am talking about but you all are saying 1 thing and doing another. so which is it?
Mosha DKhan wrote: Mosha do u even no the difference between contested and uncontested avoidance? Im not a expert on this or anything but contested checks mobs level, IE deflection skill gives a diminished return on mobs greater than your current level. uncontested avoidance does not check agained the mobs level. Knowing that figure out if deflection chance (and riposte chance parry chance and the like) are uncontested. which if you would have accually read what dorieon wrote you would have pulled that information out of it.
Whoever said that monks aren't desired because there are so many people out there who are undergeared or don't know how to play the class makes a good point. There are definitely a lot of monk alts out there and just bad monks who don't get it. But its like that with any class, however I guess there are more of them playing monks since we are a trickery class to play and you have to actually be really good at what you do to be a monk. I've worked incredibly hard this year gearing up---getting my fabled epic, then my mythical, getting shard gear, my TSO chapter quests, etc. I recently did a ton of research and reorganized all of my AA's into a tank spec and DPS spec. And I consider myself a highly effective tank. I get compliments from group mates after we run a zone at how good I was tanking. People are surprised when they see a really good monk. I went on a x4 raid the other night and ended up parsing 7th overall in DPS, which I think is pretty damn good for a monk out of 24 people. I think the main problem we have is AE aggro control. We simply need one more AE taunt. I keep AE aggro decently, but nowhere near as well as other tanks. The other problem with monks is that we have low mitigation to begin with, so until we've really geared up we are not very effective tanks. Even after we're geared up, our mitigation won't be nearly as high as a plate tank. Having our mythical raise our mit to rival chain is great, but I think we need more little boosts like that. Why not have some armor set bonuses give us +mit? Or just having select armor pieces that give +mit. I'm not asking to make us overpowered, I just want the gap between us and plate tanks closed a little bit.
FYI the t3 lava boots do give +mit, i wear them every once in a while but over all they are still not worthwhile
lavrence wrote: Okay, this is just getting more confusing by the minute. Here's the mechanics of deflection, minimum deflection and deflection chance: Deflection is a defensive skill more or less like parry, defense, block and riposte. Only brawlers have it, and only brawlers will see any benefit from it. Minimum deflection is uncontested avoidance. Minimum deflection does not add to deflection, but replaces contested avoidance with uncontested - the formulation on our balanced and defensive stances are different, but it's basically the same there. Deflection Chance increases deflection AND minimum deflection by a percentage. Let's say you have 10% minimum deflection, 50% deflection and 0% minimum deflection. You now equip an item giving you 10% minimum deflection. As a result, you will now have 11% minimum deflection and 55% deflection. That, in a nutshell, is how these three forms of deflection work. Unless it's been so long since I bothered to log into my mon that I've gone and messed it up - and I doubt it.
I want brawlers to be buffed so i can hit autoattack, qeue a couple of skills, walk away and make a sandwich and come back in time for the death blow so i can rinse and repeat. This way I can do instance groups, tank raids and get my daily chores out of the way. Whats the point of a single target tank when all the stuff we fight is multiple targets? Does a group seriously want me to go in and maticulately pull encounters one by one and not be able to manage when an extra encounter adds? I did guk the other night and quickly realized i couldnt hold agro vs encounters unless I waited for crane flock (which only hits 4 targets max), and have a dirge/coercer in the group for hate transfer. But that has to do with group composition. Just like other classes we need certain ones to help us accomplish our goal. If you have a dirge and coercer both at the same time with a solid healer you can take on pretty much anything. Sometimes full on defensive is not the way for us to go... its a mixture of both that allows us to hold agro and effectively kill stuff faster (thanks BChizzle on that). I found the most effective is what boosts uncontested avoidance. Adding adornments to weapons with 3% to riposte, adornments to wrists for 3%, and ward items like the Ring off Byzola, Ring from Evernight Abbey, Wrist from Xebnok and a ward belt from either Kurns Tower x2, Frenzied Ghoul from Guk etc is a good combination of items to wear when tanking either solo or in a group. Parry food and drink are good to have as well. The rest of my gear is full on offensive since killing stuff faster in turn makes the battle end quickly.
Siatfallen wrote: Fixed it for you, Siat. The bottom line is that you can (almost) completely ignore everything except minimum deflection and uncontested avoidance items for raid tanking. Over time, your ACT avoidance report when tanking raid mobs will show that actual avoidance on your own (e.g. not including another fighter's avoidance checks, shield ally, stone skin) will = minimum deflection + (total of all % riposte and parry items) + a very small amount (under 5%) for all contested avoidance.
Rythalian@Crushbone wrote: That is incorrect. Contested avoidance is worth more then 5%, fight a non TSO raid mob, one that doesn't strikethrough and you will see that it matters alot. EDIT: Or tank in offensive stance.
I was only talking about things where it matters - TSO raid names. I have lots and lots of parse data to back up my statements above, as regards x4 raid bosses in TSO.
Rythalian@Crushbone wrote: You dont get it. Strikethrough makes your avoid as displayed in ACT look stupid on TSO raidmobs making your believe contested avoidance is worthless, like I said it is very valuable, tank in offensive you will still avoid 30-40% on a TSO raid mob instead of 60-70% which should show you it is important.
Yep. If you are tanking in offensive, and are specced right, you still have at least 7-10% minimum deflection. You also likely have some riposte or parry adornments and perhaps parry food and drink, plus you will likely be hitting tsunami frequently, all of which is uncontested. That, plus a minimal amount of avoids coming from your contested avoidance checks could easily get you to 30-40%. I never said uncontested avoidance is worthless -- those are your words. It's not worthless. However, 1 point of uncontested avoidance is worth ~5-7 points of contested. I have never seen uncontested avoidance itself account for more than 10-12% avoidance against a tough TSO raid name. Usually it's closer to 5-7%. That's with my avoidance displaying at over 22K.
BChizzle wrote: I actually have to agree to a degree with this perspective because personally I run with a particular brawler tank any chance I get not because he has T4/etc/etc w/e mad phat lewtz, but because he knows what he's doing more so than alot of tanks that are far better geared. He sets up with a group that is made with the consideration that he'll need more wards and restoration healing than other tanks would, and sets up with more attack speed since he's a bruiser, and sets up the dps to play in conjunction with him. He obviously had to work at all this, but he achieved his guild MT possition back in the very end of KoS and early part of RoK. He's not the only one I've run with either that knows what he's doing. There are about 5 brawler tanks I run with frequently on my wizzy, warden, and soon troub as well, so it's not like it's as impossible as brawler tanking is being made out to be. Granted it is more difficult than plate tanks (guardians in TSO probably don't have it that much easier) but it's by no means impossible, and if anything it should motivate you to show people wrong and prove that as a brawler you can be a good tank just in a different way. Playing my paladin tank often times nets me those awesome stereotypes of "afk easymode tank" and other garbage like that. It doesn't discourage me from playing him because I know what I have to do to keep agro against multiple dpsers is way above and beyond the call for the other plate tanks, and for those that don't know it is freaking rediculous how hard it is. Much harder than playing my monk as a tank ever was because unlike multi-mob tanking with a brawler, people expect you to have solid hate 24/7 as a plate tank even in a situation where you physically will not have the hate required because of their actions and by no fault of your own. As a paladin if there are 2 dpsers ping-ponging the parse, you might as well just /quit and save yourself the large number of deaths and the killer migraine that you will garunteed have by the end of it. Despite that though, I still welcome the challenge, because overcoming that type of obstical is what makes you a better player and better tank. On a somewhat more pessimistic note, at least you remain broken and can count on nothing changing much. As a paladin, each and every game update I have to remove the nerf bat from my butt and figure out whats changed so that I can relearn how to tank with my class. Despite how rational, logical, and well thought out the paladin complaints about horribly underpowered abilities such as stonewall are, SOE refuses to acknowledge them and remains steadfast with their infatuation for nerfing paladins. Also, at least you can use stoneskins and other such abilities to counter large haymaker shots against you or to avoid damage. The paladins can only bolster their life and mitigation more and if it's not enough hp to take the hit or enough heals to take the shots, our only real form of recourse is to accept it and bend over for the big ones. In conclusion, you shouldn't look at what you don't have, you should look at what you DO have, and try to work with that because doing something will earn you alot more than doing nothing and whining about it, especially considering standing track records and the yearly refreshed resolution to listen to and not ignore the playerbase.
Rythalian@Crushbone wrote: Wrong if you are going all out offensive you are using +CA adorns. Also stop making stuff up, ACT does not tell you if an avoid that was made was done so as a contested or uncontested avoid so you have no clue what you are talking about. The best way to see contested avoidance is to drop all of your uncontested and tank with that and compare, something you clearly have not done as evidence of your posting. You aren't qualified to make the statements you are making. Very simply contested avoid works great and people who say it doesn't haven't done the testing, you claim to have "lots and lots of parse data to back up my statements" well show us this parse data since I know for a fact it doesn't exist.
BChizzle wrote: Your assumptions are incorrect, and, as usual, your belief that you are the only one who "knows" and everybody else is an idiot undermines rather than supports the points you want to make. Case in point: 1. I know very well that ACT does not differentiate between "contested" and "uncontested" avoidance checks. Nor does the log data. I made no claim otherwise - again, your words, not mine. I reach the conclusions I have reached on the basis of looking at the overall numbers of ripostes, parries, dodges and deflections in various situations, with various setups, against various MoBs. If you look at where the numbers land with various levels of uncontested and contested avoidance, you can draw some conclusions, which I have done. 2. "Very simply contested works great" is a silly statement. It works. It works at various levels against various mobs. Does it reduce incoming damage against even the toughest orange TSO raid bosses with strikethrough? Yes it does. Does it reduce very much in those situations? No, it doesn't. Unlike you, I don't believe that I know everything about this topic. That's why I continue to test these things, parse them and come here to have discussions about them. That said, it's SO aggravating to get involved in these discussions with you, when you persist in being so incredibly aggressive and abusive, that I may well stop. It's really unfortunate, because I think that you DO know quite a bit and have helpful stuff to add to the discussion. A shame, really.
Rythalian@Crushbone wrote: Take your own adivce and stop then because making up numbers like contested avoid does less then 5% of avoid is spreading misinformation and harmful to people trying to better themselves in this class. People come here for help not to have BS rammed into them. Quite simply you made a BS statement with nothing but fantasy to back it up. EDIT: I also want to point out that I plainly said you are wrong, I have not called you an idiot or taken it to a personal level despite your weak attempt to do so in this post. If you have an issue about being told you are wrong when you are in FACT wrong, well if you are going to make outlandish false statements with nothing but feelings to back them you might want to get used to the idea of being called wrong.
and this is the problem with the fighter post. only if Bchizzle would never say anything and just was never negative, then these fighter post might be helpful to others.
