Its easy to get 218 DPS if the fight lasts 2 seconds. His point was that in short fights the extra 300 damage counts a lot.
How to pull 170 - 220 dps. Enchanter + dirge + troubador = endless power, high attack rate, high power (there were only two other ppl in group, temp and guard, which didn't add to my dps). I think my agility with just dirge / troubador buffs is around 366? str just under 300. Twist Afflicted Blade, Tarvens Catnankerous Verse, Gutteral Shriek, Bereavement, and Wail of the Banshee. With that combo, chanter haste, and your power bar going down about 2 blue bubbles a fight (this is with chanter / bard mana regen mind you), you will put up nearly 200 dps. 218 was the highest I've ever seen myself do, and the fight lasted 30 seconds, roughly. It was in lavastorm, on one of the mobs near Sol ( lvl 48?). Without troubador and only chanter, dps is approx 160max... without chanter with troubador dps is about 150 max. WIthout either dps is around 120. Basically the long and the short of it is, in a perfect setting, dirges can be crazy dps (all of these are single target mind you). I'm impatient most of the time and burn skills as fast as possible, always having a button in qeue, always hitting somehow. So for all you dirges who want to do crazy damage, find a troubador friend to group with all the time, I'm yet to see any combo compliment each other as well as troubador / dirge. As far as the stealthed attack goes, mid combat I tried casting it and it landed for just over 500... still not worth it to cast mid fight, but... 500 damage on a stealthed hit is still about 125dps (this of course is after all the AC debuffs, and Delusory Trill not Garsins, altho fully debuffed, I'd bet garsins lands for over 600, will test later).
I used to use it till Bria ticks stopped me staying stealthed great stuff this. Anyways if we have casters in the group the debuff that helps them land spells is worth it to.
Orgin, a 10 sec fight is hardly an acceptable standard for your dps. I can go backstab a low lvl gnoll for 400 damage, kill it in one hit and my dps is 400. That's basically what your saying man. Message Edited by Lornick on 02-28-2005 09:57 AM
I didn't rate your comment, but I disagree about forgetting the lifetap portion. I think they should change it to a lifetap over time. It does an initial tap of 20% more than its doing now(eg if it taps for 250, it would tap for 300) and every 6 seconds for 4 cycles it taps 40% of the initial tap(ie 100). The end result would be a total of 700dmg done to the mob and 700 lifetapped to the dirge. A second option would be to up the amount of damage(2x current amount) done to the mob but leave the amount lifetapped the same. For example, If I could deal 250 damage to the mob now, it would turn into 500 damage done to the mob, but only 250 of that is returned. This would help with the dps loss we see when singing songs. I also hope they take additional looks at the Dirge AOE songs. Either they are way underpowered or broken. My suggestion to these spells are to quadruple the amount of damage done and leave everything else the same way. Dealing 70-130ish damage to multiple mobs that have over 10k HP each is just dumb. Dirge level 50 AoE dot does 79 damage per tick at adept 1. I suggest that this damage per tick be upped to around 160-200 per tick. My last suggestion, which was also made in previous posts is to give Dirges an upgrade to Lanet's Excruciating Scream.
I never once said a 10 second fight, I said a 30 second fight. With a dirge, troubador, chanter, guardian, templar... i beg anyone to kill a lvl 48 mob in lavastorm in 10 seconds, tell me if it's possible... you'll find out that it takes about 25 - 40 seconds. If i wanted to do 400 dps, I would've gone to CL and landed one hit... but what would that accomplish. Just cus you haven't done it before, doesn't mean it isn't possible. 218dps was the highest I've ever seen the parse show, and was more than likely a fluke (as the next highest was 198). Other than that about 175 seemed to be the norm. Maybe mobs in lavastorm / sol have much less AC than PF or CT, but... I was out dpsing the troubador by about 35, and dwarfing the guardian. About the post on someone wanted Wail of the Banshee doing 160 - 200 damage per tick... err... that'd just be silly. Wail of the Banshee is unlimited targets, 10 mobs 79 x 5 waves = 3950 damage in 16 seconds? if the damage was 160... 10 x 160 x 5 = 8k in 16 sec (with a 20 sec recast)... Wizards and warlocks cant even push that kinda damage, would just be silly. Message Edited by Orgingrinder on 02-28-2005 04:55 PM
Look, it comes down to this. We are **** right now in a bad way. I was Parsing for 3 hours the other day at level 43. A level 41 Corcer out DPSed me, A level 38 Gaurdian out DPSed me. EVERYONE out DPS's me even a 41 Troubador haha. Our High Damage Steath attack at adept one at level 43 does 556 but doesnt every break 350 even with debuffs and with good weapons? No idea there, our flanking attack rocks it. Played with a level 43 Guardian last night who had single attacks that where doing over 690, other hits where doing over 200-400. He DPSed me into the Dirt. So what is the role we are to play? Corcers rock us on power regen, Have mezz for group incounters, They have Haste for the party, and they out DPS us? This is just my observation the last 3 levels when I was playing with my guildies in CT. It is so bad that I started leveling up a monk, to where I can feel like I am helping the groups out more. My power regen sucks, my DPS sucks. The only good thinks I add is 1 decent debuff, One decent buff at a high concentration cost, and a decent stam/damage aug. any other questions? Xan is right, there needs to be something done before Dirges go missing from the realm of EQ2.
Oh P.S., Orgingrinder, What are you talking about? there are Prist class's that are doing more damage with dots to groups then we are. There are people doing AE attacks for 200+ comparied to our 39. When people are able to do that kind of damage and we are gimped out of it what are you really thinking? You think its ok for Guardians to do 200+ AE blead over a 18sec time frame? You need to look into the other class's abilitys and not make blanket statements.
Guess I'll show some numbers on Wail of the Banshee to show infact how strong it is... Our biggest melee hit among those who dont like to use Garisons is Gutteral Shriek which does 292 - 487 damage (avg. 389.5) for a power cost of 99. 389.5 / 99 = 3.934 damage / power. Lets see once and for all how Wail of the Banshee compares... On a one mob encounter Wail does 79 x 5 = 395 at 254 power cost = 1.555 damage / power. On a two mob encounter Wail does 79 x 5 x 2 = 790 damage at 254 power cost = 3.11 damage / power (notice we're almost at the same damage/power output as Gutteral shriek) On a three mob encounter Wail does 1185 damage at 254 power cost = 4.67 damage / power, so on a three group encounter this is already our hardest hitting combat skill / spell, by a lot over Gutteral Shriek. I'm going to skip a few now and post a 10 mob encounter, just for fun... (these are rare tho, and usually raid events) 10 mob encounter Wail does 79 x 5 x 10 = 3950 damage for 254 power cost = 15.55 damage / power. Now I'll show what would happen if say Wail did like someone suggested and did, what... 160 - 200 damage (lets go in the middle with 180) On a one mob encounter Wail does 180 x 5 = 900 at 254 power cost = 3.756 damage / power (already nearly as high as Gutteral Shriek, as far as damage / power goes) Two mob encounter... 180 x 5 x 2 = 1800 damage at 254 power = 7.09 / power... heh...Gutteral what? 10 mob encounter ... 180 x 5 x 10 = 9000 at 254 power = 35.43 / power... anyone see a problem here? ***Notable "big" damage nukes / power... Ice Comet = roughly 3500 damage for 258 power cost = 13.57 damage / power*** If damage was changed on Wail of the Banshee to 180ish per tick, Dirges would crush wizard dps on encounters of 4 or more mobs... which would be plain stupid. 79 / tick for 5 hits by unlimited mobs is extremely strong as is (infact i can already smell nerf as to the unlimited mobs). Oh, for all those who think dirges dps suck as well, on a group of 4 mobs, if it takes say one minute to kill all 4 (sure hope so) and your Wail of the Banshee goes even one full round, that's 26 dps alone for a 2 second cast (you'd have to land Gutteral shriek 5 times to beat that xcept, unfortuanetly it would cost you 241 more power to do so)... Hopefully those numbers show that Wail of the Banshee is a pretty good spell as is, and if it was increased anymore it would be silly (which is what i think i stated last time). Someone able to post how Devastation compares to this, as far as damage / power per mob, etc?.. since they are the kings of AoE fights. Message Edited by Orgingrinder on 03-02-2005 02:05 AM
I'm still scratching my head here... By the time you get to 50 dps classes, have their dps increase, I don't even get a chance to land lanets or garsin's twice, maybe gutteral shriek twice, if I were to constantly use AoE's my dps would be even lower. On a situation where its a named, or 50+ mob then yes my dps is higher. I have been in chanter,troub,dirge, sk group *nice dps buff* and still don't come close to your 218 DPS, I have had STR, AGI over 300 and INT near 200, with an attack rating of 930'ish. My highest magic hit * Lanets * has landed for 930 somehow haha. My only bragging rights are being ranked 5th, and being ranked 225 for highest Magic hit. My suggestions for improving DPS, are not to increase the damage, skills do *including the AoE's* but to drasticly cut back on the casting, and recast timers, it saddens me when I keep getting *target is not alive*. Message Edited by Nobolis on 03-02-2005 03:34 AM
Its the recovering time on ae's that hurt them the most, that and then the cast time of the regular ones. If they don't want us to be big hitters with ae's fair enough, then reduce recovery and cast time, and maybe add more secondary effects to them, interupts/stuns maybe short duration but noticeable debuffs etc, would all fit fine within our class and make this line of spells more desirable.
I posted "218 was the highest I've seen myself do"... and the reason for this was, i hit 198 one fight, and my troubador friend said to me, wouldn't it be cool to break 200, so for the next 45 mins or so that's all i tried to do, and sure enough finally it happened. 218 dps by a dirge is pretty rare, but it is possible. I think I also said the average was somewhere between 170 - 180ish (which is still pretty high, and entirely possible by any dirge, paired with a troubador and enchanter). I would have to agree with cast times / delays being reduced. Yet, we are more of a debuffing class... so dunno if the arguement would actually be heard, by the dev team.
Unfortunately I do not take the time to post messages, but this issue is something i feel very strongly about. I keep up on lots of the messages that are going around and read the boards often, i just do not take the time to make a post. So, on to why this is my first post. The fact that we have to think so much about our arts and songs is something that i love about being a "bard" class, and a dirge specifically. We get the opportunity to think beyond: Heal tank, Taunt mob, Nuke mob. We have to change what songs we play, and what songs we don't play according to the group we are in. The best part also is that around level 30 when we get our slow, our effeciveness and decisions make more of an impact in a group. These are just some of the things that I LOVE about being a dirge. Now after looking at all your posts i've thought about one thing that isn't mentioned too much in this thread. The recast time and casting time of our songs and arts. What I am referring to is the order in which our songs and arts can be casted to obtain the most usage. I am a level 49 dirge of Lucan DLere. I regularly group with a corecer so this may not be something to take into practice in a normal group, but it may help in boss type mobs. I do not "parse" anything. This is just my play style without getting over technical that it makes me lose hours of sleep over the math. My normal songs that i have up are Discordant Boon (skill increase song) Jonthans (buff + movement speed) and proc song (which can vary depending) When the tank pulls I have "trained" him to give an "incoming" message AFTER he has engaged the mob with preferably an arrow so that I can cast my HO starter chain first so that he can advance the chain using his FIRST taunt. As soon as the mob is close enough i'm casting clara's (debuff). Usually the mage has done the final trigger before my debuff lands so that if Trinity Divide is triggered i've advanced the mask with clara's. (if not i flip, yada yada yada) My next spell is Lanet's, (which will advance the HO if grand proclmation is the desired HO) mostly because i can only cast this spell once per battle. Here is where timing is key. I cast in this order these arts and am able to cast them continually with no break inbetween. Gutteral Shriek Bereavement Ludas Fiendish Howl Cry of the Dead Afflicted Blade Gutteral Shriek Bereavement Sneak Garsins Haunting Wail Verlien's Keen of Woe (or level 10 training root due to fear) Now after doing that chain of combat arts there is little time left to even consider doing them again. It greatly depletes your mana and it isn't something that i do very often because it takes great concentration and mobs with high health in order to execute. But it makes me feel like i am twisting songs like i used to in EQLive. Now i have no clue if this does any decent DPS, i'll leave that up to you guys, because as i said numbers and games don't go well with me because i could think things up all day long, i'm just relaying what information i've come across. The root at the end is VERY nice because of our blasted fear tied with the attack. It is annoying but it allows us to be able to use the fear without problems, or if you didn't choose the root then the snare has some decent effects tied with it, but you'll break the fear before the mob can get too far from you anyway. Also if i'm feeling really on top of my game i through in another HO starter chain after Afflicted blade. Let me know the actual numbers on this if you feel so inclined, i'd be interested if it actually does work out some of the kinks in our arts. This concludes my very first post and i hope this will open up some thoughts and replies. Vlad Kerran Dirge of Qeynos Lucan DLere Server P.S. Do all of you other dirges out there run into groups saying in great astonishment, "WHAT?!?!?! you have a Rez spell???" with the very calm response on my end, "Yes, i do have a rez song." /flex
Just wanted to put in my two cents, Personally I like all my spells so far (only lvl 32) except for Bria's power regen songs. It feels like they seems like a tier below the current lvl you recieve them. They help yes, but I was very dissapointed with the spell line. Enchanters get double the power regen than what we do, which I don't understand why they do. I hope some of the developers take time to read our thoughts and concerns, and take a look at what they can do to help us out without unbalancing the game. Deaftones.
You know, I dont mean to be degrading toward a fellow Dirge, but Origin, I have read everyone of your posts and what I find is a constant missunderstanding of your fellow dirge's out their. You know what I am glad that you are blinded by other class's and enjoy your class, I do as well. What we are trying to tell you, is this. Other class's are kicking our [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] bro. They are smoking us bad. You are telling me that you out DPSed a Guardian.... HOW? I mean that guy must have been on auto attack and sleeping at the wheel. I have top weapons, ie.(Heritage)/(rare drops) and cant even touch a Guardian. When we are saying the damage to the AE needs to be uped on Wail of Banshee or other suchs songs, you really need to look at not what we are doing and saying wow I think 79x5 ticks is cool and look at what other classes are doing ie. 200x5 ticks per mobs. Yea I would think that was cool as well if I hadent seen other classes use their skills that are in the same ball park. I dont have class envy at all I love the fact that every other class . . . I will say that again, EVERY OTHER CLASS, smokes us hahaha. They have skill on par for their level. Our stealth attacks/flanking attacks you think are tough orgingrinder hahahaha, that is a laugh max i have done with adept 1 with a 556 rating, on a mob fully debuffed was 404. . . . . . . maybe once for 420. While at the same time, get this orgin, and Think about this a sec, a guardian does not have to go into stealth does not have to stop swinging for even a secound, does not lose not even one DPS point, are you following me here, good because here it is, BAM 749 the guardan hits it out of the park, he is going long, WOW Its a home run. Get my point? Do you Understand now? 4 secounds of no DPS to get a max with max debuff ie inquis/dirge debuffs 420 Guardian, 3 sec cast time, no DPS down time ie they never stop attacking to activate a skill, for 749 and this also holds true for every other class out there, ie monk/[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]/swash/ect.... Our DPS blows and is every underpowerd, for their levels and need to be fixed and brought onto par with other class abilitys. For referance that guardian skill is only level 43 and I refuse to ask what they get at 50 or any other skill close to that level. and yes I do play other class's for my info, I have a level 30 monk that smokes, and can with a little hard work smoke a wizard/warlock on dps 1 level higher them her hehe
I truly hope you are joking about a guardian out dpsing a dirge, if so... i dont think a guardian has out dpsed me since lvl 40? maybe earlier? I dunno what kind of guardians you are grouping with, but for the most part, from what i can see, guards put up about 100 dps mayyyybe 120? As far as doing more dps than any other class, well of course we dont, and it would be silly if we did. Predators should do more damage than rogues, and rogues should do more damage than us. Do rogues or preds get party mana regen? (which i think shoudl be increased to about 35/tick instead of 17 @adept3). Do rogues and preds get group buffs which increase sta, agil, str, hps? How about group haste? How about AoE slows(not gunna argue if they are working or not working, fact is we have them, if they need to be fixed so be it)? If you look at our skills and directly cross referance them to that of a rogue or pred, we are obviously support class first and dps class second. Everyone is whining about not doing enough damage, when it shouldn't be our job to do. Fact is, nearly every group I am in, i far exceed that of many expectations. I get questions all the time, how do you do so much dps? how do dirges hit that hard? etc..etc. Hell if i know, i just crush out my skills, have T5 drink all the time and chanter breeze, and mana songs up. 175 - 190 dps for a support class is insane. Everyone says dirges cant do that, well... they can. I've never said dirges out dps preds and rogs, or sorcs or summoners, brawlers etc... I also play a wizard, currently 43, and know the true power of the game, imo wizards / warlocks are the strongest classes for dps by far, as nothing can touch their damage. The thing is tho, it's a lot easier to get 170 dps with one of those classes than as a dirge, and when you get to the point where you are punching out that much damage consistantly, then you'll understand. I have adept1 version of every song (now working on adept3s), and if i had to pick a favorite song of any of them, it is without doubt, Lithe Disbelief, eventho it is an aggro magnet when it procs. Maybe I should start a post about how Lithe isn't strong enough, and that we should get a 95% haste proc or something from it.. haha, that'd be sweet.
I agree Lith rules as one of my favorit songs as well, The question isnt what our role is, we are fine with our role, it is the par that we are set on. I have no idea what kind of Guardians you have on your server or what your server standard is set at, I am using at the moment Ssoy and SBD for my weapons, I have adept 1 on every song that I have, kind of unfortunate to get adept 3's but oh well. In a average fight between a dubble arrow mob a guardian/ (name your class here) will do on average 3k more damage in a given fight them I do. And that is playing mash the buttons. When everyone in game get AoE spells that are 100 damage to 250 damage AoE spells with 3 sec cast times, and No down time and we get at adept 1 79 max damage and that is our lowest level AoE spell . . . ie( our first one we get, the rest blow and get worse the higher we get). Skills for class's that doe 759 damage at app IV and hit for that vers ours that is a 4 sec out of combat move for maybe 420 when it says 536 i think it is, was just looking at it, and that is when all debuffs on the mobs. I have no idea what you are fighting but my parsings are in CT/Ferrot/Lavastorm/Everfrost. I have been preforming these prasings for 3 months. Granted I do not want to be the most UBER Dps class in the game, I know my role. but let me ask you this, Did you every play EQ1? and if so, did you ever play a Bard?. The point I am getting at is they are afraid to give us anything like they did in EQ1 because bards in EQ1 where killer. They could Charm and not the **** charm in this game, the could charm their level mobs and use them to kill other mobs. Snare, Fear. Oh yea we get fear but man its nothing to the way it used to be because we cant hit them unless its with spells. Bards in EQ1 had great power regen, and no our 13 or 17 a tick is crap, when corcers/illusionist get like 120 a tick. And yes bards could keep up with alot of other class's. No not that rogues/wizards but they where very on par. We are not on par in this game not even a little. I will make a list of what i mean Has anyone here every seen anyone else hold the same weapon that you are but is a different class? Example 1: Serrated bone dirk at level 42 for a dirge is 43 damage in my hand and is 53 damage in another class's hand ( this goes for all other class's even our arch bard the troubadors its amazing their weaopn damage is awsome.) Example 2: Our spells are just not functioning the way they should period, Or AoE sucks, I will use the lowest AoE I have seen and that is guardians that AoE for 159ish around level 43 and its no group tied. and that is vers our highest one for 79 damage at 50 and they are both dots for 5 clicks. Example 3: I was in a troubadors group who cast 5 group buffs on us. and gave me over 400 str agility and 250 stam. I was blown away. Self buffed 202 agility with all the best gear and heritage quests completed at my level. On top of that, we can do a max of Haste 2 conc Maybe lucky or our new one at 43 2 conc, and our debuff and mana regen. With those buffs on its +18% haste +7% damage mod, +13 power regen, and like 40 str agil stam. I would give it up for the 400 str agil the troub can donate to a group. because having stats that high is more then 7% damage mod its like 150% damage mod. Example 4: Spells not working, you know this and we dont need to discusse it. What this boils down to is we have preaty **** spells, our AoE are **** because SoE is afraid to give them to us because of EQ1 where bards AoE kited tons of mobs to death, so they changed that and made run speed nill in battle but they are still afraid to give us good AoE dots/blasts because of that. Bards Ruled in EQ1 with AoE and now we are suffering for it now. and Every other class that gets AoE rocks. Guardians 159ish at level 43ish Monks at level 25 for 79ish ( non group tied ) I have seen some 50 monks doing in the 350 range aoe but i could have been awake to long. Enchanters 250ish or higher Shaman types 250ish Zerkers dont even want to talk about it. I hope this makes my point, I will be glad to continue this and if i need to I will get more proof. I love the dirge and we have major patintal but right now if i didnt have friends I would be looked over for a chanter 3-5 levels lower then me. they have 43% haste and not 18% they have better damage augment spells and by far the best power regen at 120ish a tick vers 13. Draw your own conclusion, What is our roll? If you are fighting group mobs 4+ a enchanter will out DPS you trust me.
Bards in EQ1 dominated. I had a 70 bard, and must say, there wasn't much i couldn't do. As a bard you could solo from lvl 1 to 70 with ease, or group and have fun that way. Bards were the best soloers, groupmates and Powerlevelers in that game. Which was one of the many faults of EQ1, having a class that dominated as hard as they did. Although, they were extremely hard to play, and only good players could play them, the rest made wizards or something like that *laugh*. Alas, eq2... they are not a dominating class, infact there is no class which dominates the eq2 classes, as bards did in eq1. Eq1 is dead and the game sux in comparison to this, thus I have no reason to even compare between the two. That said... Who cares if guardians can do AoE damage more than us? Who cares if chanters can do more AoE damage than us? Warlocks do the most AoE damage of any class in this game, so what? who cares?... Those classes dont do the same things as dirges do, plain and simple. I would be incredibly happy to see us do more damage, but at what cost? Wizards and Warlocks had their dps improved because they are absolutly frail in defense. The reason they were given a boost in their damage is because they ARE suppose to be the most dominant force in this game. In doing so, i personally think they are now too powerful for their own good, as a terrible wizard or warlock can now out dps a great scout. Where do dirges lay? Should we be doing more damage than a wizard/warlock? more than a monk/bruiser? more than rogues or preds? In my opinion, if I am out dpsing any of those classes in any given fight, they aren't pulling their weight. We should not be at the top of the dps list, ever (although it does happen from time to time). To think that we should be among the top is rediculus. The reason that we are in groups is to make other people hit harder (support class) than they normally should, plain and simple. So, basically if we get improved dps, to put us on the same parse as rogs/preds, then they will start complaining about how they are doing the same damage as bards. Why should a class which gets so many group improving buffs and debuffs, be doing the same damage or close to the same damage as pure dps classes? Would there be a need for a dps class? In end, i guess.. sure.. complain we dont do enough damage, and we need an improvement, guarentee you within a month, there will be improvements made on rogs/preds and all the other classes who "should" out dps a support class, so we'd be back in square one. Is there a solution, well.. there could be. Give each scout class the same dps base. Allow instruments to affect bard songs and make them more potent, like eq1 (why dont the instruments make songs better btw? oversight?). Allow some type of focus item which allows predators to hit extra hard. Impliment a vast improvement on the rogues poison damage. Other than that, i dont really know. In response to guardians doing more dps than dirges, again.. you must be talking low 40s or prior, cus, I haven't seen one come close to out dpsing me for a long long time, especially since last patch. If I wanted to hit as hard as an assassin, I would've made an assassin. If i wanted to nuke like a wizard, I'd of made a wizard, and if i wanted to get beat up all the time, I'd of made a guardian, alas... I decided to continue to play a band geek, in hopes they'd dominate as they did in eq1 (If i could go back 4 months and repick a class I'd of gone warlock). I'd like to think of myself as a pretty descent player, and i nit pick everything to the point i want to claw out my eyeballs, and I've never been on the bottom end of a parse, and have always held my own, with every group I've been in. Message Edited by Orgingrinder on 03-03-2005 02:49 PM
Orgin, I just don't know what to tell you. I have the feeling you'll keep saying the same thing over and over. I've done plenty of dps parses. I haven't seen anything close to the numbers your talking about. Granted I'm not usually in a group with both a troub and coercer on a regular basis, but I refuse to believe that'll add 100 dps to what I'm doing. If I may be so bold, will you do the following dps parse test for me? 1.) Parse yourself soloing. 10 of the same mobs. No heroic opportunities. Use the Nightbloods in Enchanted Lands by lavastorm zone in for an easy standard (single target, double undercon). Use the same skill order. Average it and tell me what you get. (I say no HO's cause they are too random and will throw the test off) State what weapons you have in primary/secondary and what skill order your using.
