Crypt's quiet and its upgrades - This song line adds a proc to all members that does disease damage every now and then. From multiple parsings this song will roughly add about 2-5% DPS total to groups. I don't use it that often because of the low return on it. I have other songs in my arsenal that will increase DPS much more for our limited concentration pools. Maybe adjust the proc rate on this song up a bit or add something to it like a random lifetap. ________________________ I had this running the other day, since me and a troub were in group with a guardian, bezerker, defiler and assassin. My proc went off, 160...hey not bad, followed by the troubador, 155, just about the same. Then the bezerker's proc went off, 440...err, what!? Yes bezerker's proc is that much better than ours. I would like to see an up in the percentage of proc or increased damage.
Once again. I've responded to this elsewhere in the thread. Let me spell it out for you in simple terms. 300 damage for misfortunes kiss is what you're getting huh? Wow that's alot of damage isn't it? No, it sucks. First off, are you aware that you can only use this combat art when you're stealthed. Oh but of course you are. Are you aware that it takes 3 seconds to cast your stealth in combat? Sure you are. Are you also aware that during that 3 seconds you do not attack, swing, do anything at all while you're casting your stealth? Uh, oh. Now that's 3 seconds we're talking about. But wait there's more. Once stealth lands you have to wait another second before you can actually get your stealth attack off assuming no lag. Under optimal conditions that is a total of 4 seconds where you are standing there doing nothing. So then, 300dam/4secs = 75 damage per second. I don't know about you but I regularly average 130-180 DPS. 75 DPS would most defintely lower that down. But let's assume you're using this PRIOR to engagement and not during. As you just said the flanking attack always hits for more damage. Why then would you want to use your stealth attack especially considering that the mob will possibly get feared from it and run away. Yes, that's right the last upgrade to our stealth attack randomly fears mobs. Do you think our groups are happy when we fear mobs away that they're trying to kill? do you think it's cool to get stuck in combat mode because the mob wandered off somewhere and won't come back? I invite you to do some parsing on your own before you come in here spouting off in an attempt to demean someone else when you aren't willing to nor ever did anything for the dirge community to help better them. At least I took the time to address issues and got a response from the devs while other classes are floundering without them.
Well, I'm glad you actually reposted about that, but as i stated in the initial post, if you start casting stealth while running towards the mob(since stealth isn't interupted by movement), you are stealthed when you get to the mob, then you have a 1 sec cast for 300 damage right off the bat. Never once did i say you run into combat engage then stealth (which you cannot do mind you, but of course you'd know this). If you are in a stationary spot and group is pulling to you, cast stealth mid pull, so when pull gets there you can smack off 300 damage. If you are doing it your way, then yes, your dps sucks, and it isn't worth doing. Waiting for mob X to be beside you, then casting stealth, is the same logic as casting a buff mid pull. The highest level stealth isn't bad at all, infact it is quite valuable in certain situations. I'm worried that because so many people are complaining about it, it will be taken out.. which would truly suck. A fear effect on a stealth attack does seem pretty lousy at first glance. Think outside the box. As far as Hyrans Song, this isn't meant for xp mobs, or xp groups, or killing **** mobs. It's meant for raid encounters. EQ1 terms since I have much more experience in this than EQ2 raiding scheme as yet.. but this is my thinking... EQ1 big raid kills, as soon as target was pulled Chanter_01 casts tashani, SHaman_01 casts malo, CHanter_01 casts cripple, Shaman_01 casts slow, Chanter_01 gets destroyed, Shaman_01 gets destroyed, Tank_01 has all the remaining aggro on a fully crippled and slowed high end mob, thus success on raid. EQ2 logic, tank_01 pulls shaman slows.. etc..etc.. BUT, dirge casts hate on tank_01 prior to shaman, chanter, etc.. getting killed. Could mean the difference between life and death for the debuffers. Granted the effect of the hate isn't "uber" by any stretch, but still could be enough. Wish there was something like this in EQ1. Orgingrinder 50 dirge Grobb Message Edited by Orgingrinder on 02-23-2005 03:33 PM Message Edited by Orgingrinder on 02-23-2005 03:42 PM
Well, I'm glad you actually reposted about that, but as i stated in the initial post, if you start casting stealth while running towards the mob(since stealth isn't interupted by movement), you are stealthed when you get to the mob, then you have a 1 sec cast for 300 damage right off the bat. Never once did i say you run into combat engage then stealth (which you cannot do mind you, but of course you'd know this). If you are in a stationary spot and group is pulling to you, cast stealth mid pull, so when pull gets there you can smack off 300 damage. If you are doing it your way, then yes, your dps sucks, and it isn't worth doing. Waiting for mob X to be beside you, then casting stealth, is the same logic as casting a buff mid pull. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yes, yes everyone is aware of that. I'm aware of that, have been aware of it since I first got stealth as a lowbie scout. Makes no difference. Your flanking attack does more damage than the stealth attack to start off the battle. ooops. So why again are you using a **** attack that fears mobs to start out with? Crowd control? That's what Garsin's is for. Oh and by the way you can stealth in combat. Your lowbie sneak can be cast in combat. You are clearly wrong there. Obviously you've never tried or you'd know that. Your other stealths don't work in combat. But who cares it's **** anyways. Hey, but if you want to use that **** stealth attack be my guest. I'm gonna stack clara's on the inc and pop them for far more than you'll ever get off with a stealth attack that FEARS and is not coupled with a Clara's.
Great List Xanusus. I agree with the vast majority of your post. I haven't seen as much of a return on the songster luck series as you describe, but I haven't done extensive testing with it either. It does exactly what the spell describes, but the benefit seems pretty marginal to me. The one thing I did notice that's missing on your list is our deaggro ability. Or lack thereof I should say. All we have is evade. No upgrade. Ever. We need something that works, even if it does have a 10minute recast.
Well that is good to know, that we 'can' stealth during combat. However that is useless, because as you stated it does less dps (seeing as it would take at least 4 sec to pull it off). The thing is, we get about 4? skills that I would use every fight, that I'd consider do enough damage to be worth while casting. No arguement that the flanking attack is greater damage, i know this, my high hit with the flanking attack is nearly 600. The highest stealthed attack I've seen is about 485 (give or take). The thing is, most of the time the stealth attack hits for 300. I understand your plan, and hey, i do it more often than not as well, simply because I'm lazy most of the time. BUT, when I'm trying to crush out as much dps as possible per that fight, opening with stealthed attack will always be greater than opening with flanking attack. your way hits would probably look something like this... 300, 180, 165+180+35x5(or whatever the dot portion of that is), 165, then cacaphony, then rinse repeat. The thing is, by mashing the four skills then cacaphony, you still have about a 1 - 2 sec wait on the flanking attack, where you just melee... If you open with stealthed attack you get 300, 300, 180, 165+180+35x5, 165, then cacaphony, then flanking attack has repopped, rinse repeat. Opening with stealthed attack gives you an additional 300 damage with the sequence, there is no way you can do more dps doing your method, the numbers just dont work. However, like i said... the vast majority of fights I'm not in the mood to stealth while running, then strike, then fly through the skills, etc... and do your move. As far as the fear portion of the song on the highest level stealth, it pains me to see that you cannot grasp what the song is going for, as you do seem like a very intelligent person. I fear that by so many people complaining about this song it will be changed, which would suck. Also if you notice on the fear, it's not really like a conventional fear (garisons). When you cast garisons on a mob the mob usually (99%) of the time does a straight line away from the fight. The fear that procs from the stealthed attack causes the monster to do the funky chicken, just bobbing back and forth in the same spot for about 4 seconds. I've tested the song in permafrost on the ramps (no problems), in CT through the maze (no problems), and in any normal outdoor zone. Never once have i seen a mob hit with this skill, actually run straight from combat as they do with garisons. The only reason i do not cast it on XP groups for the most part, is because it aggrivates me when mob is doing the funky chicken and turns as my flanking hit is about to land, causing it to miss I dont really know what else to say, other than an extra 300 damage at the beginning of a fight, is much better than not having a 300 attack at the start of a fight. Orgingrinder
Songsters Luck is actually one of the most powerful buff lines we have. It gives (at it's lower levels) 5 points to your defensive and offensive skills. This literally makes you operate as if you were one level higher. You can see very dramatic differences just in one test. FInd a bottom-end-green melee ^^ mob. FIght it with the song running, and without. Of all our songs, that's the only one that merits two concentration points. This is not a good test for giving a blanket statement about the effectiveness of the song, but at least with that example, you'll find the difference between a rough fight and a no brainer where you could take two at the same time. It's literally that good.
Honestly, we can chatter about the various abilities until we are blue in the face, without parse logs on how our songs effect us and our groups, we are speculating. I will conduct some tests soon, with my standard group, to see the DPS factor against mobs and just as importantly mobs against my group.
Ok first off clara's is placed on the inc before the mob or your group reaches the encounter. If you open with stealh attack first you are not awarded that opportunity. Therefore when each of your attacks hit and you have 3 melee arts that will plus the defense debuff they will not be aided by clara's if you're opening up that way. They will do less damage. They will ALL do more damage with the clara's on the incomming equally matching any advantage you seem to think opening with stealth attack gives you. Adept3 clara's puts the whoop azz on mobs. So then, clara's, defense debuff(.5 secs to get off), Gutteral shriek that normally does 300+? Try 450 now, Afflicted blade normally hitting for 180+165 plus the DoT try 210+190 plus the DoT, Bereavement normally hitting for 180 try 240 now. Any advantage you had by opening with stealth attack is more than erased and you don't have to waste combat time and extra attacks in between to try and cast clara's. There's a reason why you open up that way one of which I just explained. the other reason the progression of attacks go in that order is 1)Clara's(explained above) 2) Defense debuff(your attacks all will hit harder as a result of doing this first and once again you can't get this off when using stealth first so your stealth attack goes unaided by this)3) Gutteral shriek - now hitting harder because of clara's and defense debuff 4) Afflicted Blade - now hitting harder because of Clara's and defense debuff 5) Bereavement - now hitting harder because of Clara's and defense debuff. By trying to cast clara's during the battle you're wasting 3 seconds of time. And why are you now having to cast clara's during the battle? Because you tried opening with stealth attack. Sure that 3 seconds could be counted as downtime between refreshes but you're still losing out on your regular attack swings. I don't know about you but in 3 seconds I can swing my 2 weapons a total of 6 times and I don't have to run thru all my attacks before I get to a downtime period during refreshes where it would be optimum to cast clara's now. All of my attacks from the get go are aided by Clara's including the regular swings. Using stealth does not provide you with Clara's at all and you MUST at some point take away from your melee to cast it. Secondly the fear portion of the stealth attack works exactly like garsins. I know so because I've had to apologize to groups before for using it and getting them stuck in combat because the mob ran off and didn't come back. the fact that you think it seems to work great when the mob is bobbing and weaving under certain circumstances is mute(this happens with garsin's as well). Feared mobs retaliate when you hit them. you're gaining nothing from the fear. In fact when I do have to fear mobs I tell the group to stay away from them as they do retaliate on you when you hit them or get near.(i.e. sony's way of saying no fear kiting for ju) Furthermore it is absolutely irritating as all get out to cast stealth at the start of every battle just so you can get an extra attack in that really amounts to nothing if you set the progression of your abilities up right.
Just out of curiosity, why are you guys spending so much energy on this discussion of the stealth attack. It sucks, end of story. Quit wasting webspace already!
I think stealth attacks for us are really only useful for soloing, perhaps opening with a stealth attack that fears then might be midly useful, as you could then cast lanets as it get to a disntance. But we have a whole line devoted to these.. they could be improved alot or replaced .. although I like the fact the class has the option of them, so improved is better.
So now we have the 'one true way' of doing combat with a dirge? This is a GAME not a spreadsheet. Perhaps some people like to sneak up on mobs and stab them in the back and watch them run away in terror. Its not like you are forced to use it if you don't like it, its just an OPTION. Some people like to vary things up a bit, grinding the same exact way every time can get boring. By the way, have you ever thought that there might be two dirges in the party? In this case, there is no reason for both to debuff the mob, leaving the second one free to stealth attack at the start even using your method. Just a thought.
hehe well yes, when I've grouped with another dirge, a great deal of my arts and songs only land half the time anyway, so i guess it is an option =p as i said i like the fact we get a skill like it, but it needs improving imo. we aren't a great class to go in and out of stealth in combat, and have more options at the start of combat. Increase the damage on it, or increase the debuff on it and it might make it more attractive, at least as an opener.
They either need to forget about the lifetap portion of Cry of the Departed and change it into a different spell line... a different DD shriek or a ward, or a heal.. or something. Either that or make the lifetap portion substantial in such a way that the spell can either be used for emergency heals if you pull aggro or health maintenance... 55 point heal at level 28 with adept I is pretty pointless when mobs can hit for 10x that damage. As it is now the spell tries to ride the edge of being half shriek DD/half lifetap... and in so doing it becomes pointless, given the power cost,cast time,interrupt rate,recast time.
Stealthed attack sucks, end of story.. haha.. you guys just dont get it. I'm sick of explaining it, so if you want to suck, by all means suck it up. Last night dps was approx 170 avg. in a group of 5 in sol (guard, temp, troub, chant, dirge), and max dps on one fight was 218. I know what I'm talking about, all i do is parse and watch dps. Using stealthed attack at the beginning of the fight and then firing off all of your other skills is going to do more than w/o stealthed attack.. because at the end of the day, casting the same rotation of songs / combat skills not starting with stealthed attack, is still going to produce a result of less than 300 damage. So you say, big whoop... 300 damage, who cares. well, 300 damage on a 30 second fight is 10dps. Who cares tho, Gutteral Shriek does more damage, well.. so does afflicted blade, so does Wail of the Banshee, the thing is.. At the end of the day, I'll still do roughly 10dps more at the end of the day, just by casting stealthed attack at the start. Do i cast it every fight, no... But, on innitial engagement, while running to monster stealth up, when monster is mezzed and you're waiting for him to break it, stealth up. Just because one skill does less damage than another doesn't make it a useless skill. Anyways, if you cannot understand what I'm saying, I'm sick of saying it... sorta feels like banging my head against the wall.
The fact it can't be cast while moving is a pain, but i can see why they have done that. Otherwise I like the spell, sure it can do with being a bit more on the heal side, but I use it, lifetaps aren't ment to be a huge heal, they aren't for any of the other lifetap classes. However with this and doleful thrust, i've turned the tide in a solo fight at least, and used it in emergencies grouped. We have dd shrieks, we have screams, I'd rather have this than another dd shriek. People moan about shrieks and their cast times, well if everything was just changed to regular short cast melee attacks the class would be [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] boring and we might as well play a rogue etc as that playstyle would begin to approach that alot more. Also not sure as a dirge why i would want a heal or a ward, if anything thats more in-line with the troubadour class, and even if it was added, to be in balance with cleric and shaman heals, it would prolly be a very ineffective one. Message Edited by Jziad on 02-28-2005 03:50 AM
I'd like to know how you're pulling 170-218dps outta of your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], I have never seen any bard do more than 120, and thats pushing it. Oh and thanks for the one star, always wanted one of those heh. If an assasin with adapt3's can only pull about 250... Message Edited by Nobolis on 02-28-2005 05:57 AM Message Edited by Nobolis on 02-28-2005 06:05 AM
