I agree we have a lot of tools, sadly limited useability with 5 conc but still a lot of tools. I agree I make a difference in a group so I am not saying I am rubbish. How many of the tools we get are worth anything? The songster line is good, protects the tank helps everyone hit The haste line is questionable but still people use it The Stat buff line is okay The proc line is okay/questionable The Bria line seems okay (I am not on the last song at the moment) Debuffs it seems only Claras is really good. Slow I can see being used in a raid but do people find it effective in normal groups? Stat debuff does this do anything? I like adding to a group thats why I am a bard I dont want to out damage other scouts that really is their territory but I also dont outdamage anyone and noticeably this is a problem solo although we have sonsgter for defence. I dont see a dirge as broken at all and seem to get my share of invites, it would be nice if some of my lesser used abilities was a more valid choice.
Songsters line is shared between both troub and dirge, instead of INT on Boon, they get WIS on Swan Song. You basiclly pointed out our shared abilities are great, and possibly one DIRGE ability is great, and yet you don't think we are not fubared? Leave lvl 20 fantasy land, then again don't its a bad bad place in EQ2 reality. I know I said I wanted to stop bickering, but honestly, have the majority of you even seen what its like end game? There are roughly 100 Driges at endgame world wide, so I'm going to say no, you haven't. Heres the deal, the closer you get to 50, the further the gap between Dirge and other class DPS vastly expands, kinda like a crater...I would say its safe to say 40- things are not bad, 40+ it hits the fan. I always get into it with another Dirge in the guild, he has no Dirge problems and tells me I am playing my Dirge wrong. Yeah, ook so thats why I don't see DPS output like you do? Oh wait, I know YOU"RE NOT ATTACKING LVL 50+ mobs, with other classes at lvl 50, omg. I must suck, I mean, I have gotten Garsin's to land for 536 with the SBD, and Lanets to land for 930 *btw ranked 230th server wide for magic damage*. Remember I am horrible horrible Dirge, and thats why I'm ranked 4th on Unrest, because, I just suck at my class and have no idea what is going on. Btw I know these idea/opinions have been repeated before, but I don't think I'm going to stop repeating them till people start leaving fantasy land. Message Edited by Nobolis on 03-04-2005 05:45 AM
yeah must suck to be 50 etc etc and your opinion is of course more valid than the level 50 dirges that seem less disapointed (most people agree improvements can be made) with the class because you once landed a big lanets. great. well I think I might just carry on enjoying the class on the way to 50, and make up my own opinion when I get there, and if thats living in fantasy land, good, its a fantasy game.
Suppose i can humor the request to kill ten nightbloods, eventhough it's not really going to be all that great of a result (seeing as they are 10 lvls below me). Killed 10 Nighbloods, all ^^. 5 lvl 39, 5 lvl 40. dps is as follows lvl 39 - 10,236 damage dealt - 123.6 dps lvl 39 - 10,197 damage dealt - 124.3 dps lvl 39 - 10,184 damage dealt - 143.4 dps lvl 39 - 10,208 damage dealt - 134.3 dps lvl 39 - 10,205 damage dealt - 129.2 dps lvl 40 - 10,899 damage dealt - 122.5 dps lvl 40 - 11,319 damage dealt - 111.4 dps lvl 40 - 11,753 damage dealt - 119.9 dps lvl 40 - 11,397 damage dealt - 115.1 dps lvl 40 - 11,314 damage dealt - 124.3 dps avg. lvl 39.5. avg. damage dealt 10,771.2. avg dps = 124.8. Primary wep = ssoy Secondary wep = sbd str - 131 agi - 221 sta - 161 atk - 836 hp - 4157 power - 2263 songs up = Lithe Disbelief, Brias, Rianas, Harls. Upon engagement casting Cacaphony. attack skills used = Lanets, Bereavement, Afflicted blade, Tarvens, and Wail of the banshee. 124.8dps.. who cares, mobs were grey. However, suppose aint so bad, seeing as i wasn't able to use shriek the entire time, and was without troubador / enchanter buffs.
It has nothing to do with be uber 1337 check out my dmg, I'm pointing out the fact ish hits the fan at lvl 50. If you don't to believe me, or anyone thats your right.
I'd have to say the OP was SPOT ON. If half of these things were fixed I'd probably cry from happiness.
Legende(nobolis) is correct. Dirge DPS drops slightly each level after 40 until 48. After level 48, dirge dps drops significantly. I'm not exaggerating, it really does. The level 39 poster who posted his DPS is probably pretty accurate for the level mob he's hitting, however when you get to the 40s(I'd say 42+) and start swinging at yellows/oranges/reds you'll notice that your damage goes down each level by quite a bit compared to just about everyone else. Nobolis, you aren't playing your Dirge wrong even though your guildmate swears you are. I noticed the same thing you did while leveling up to 50. The people here also have to realize that when I turned 50, additional Mage damage hadn't even been implemented on Live servers. I'm sure its an even bigger difference in DPS now that Mages can spit out damage so fast. Lanet's used to be the big dps helper for me when I was leveling up in the 40s. Once I hit 47, mobs dropped pretty fast and it was hard to count on Lanet's as the dps helper. I also played with a Bruiser and Druid a lot, so a lot of my dps came from procs(Anarchy, druid procs, dirge proc, ykesha, charmed rapier). I hope the devs read the post of issues listed on page 1. Message Edited by Yolos on 03-24-2005 02:28 PM
Let me reply to this is a diff way. I joined a high level raid the other day. Maidens gulch. We gonna get our quest then go speak to lord nagafen. There were 2 bards there, me a lvl 48 Dirge, and another guy a lvl 45 Troubador. Guess who got stuck in the catch all group. Yup I didnt bring enough to the table to justify using me over a 45 troub in the main group. You say run speed ?? Well, everyone in this raid has 9 plat horses Crazy
I hope these issues get looked into soon. I really enjoy playing my Dirge, but the listed items are starting to effect my game. Dev's, please give us some feedback as to what, if anything we can expect in the future.
Hi, I'm a lvl 50 dirge on Crushbone server. I just want to point out that everyone (or nearly) who is saying that there are only minor problems with the class are below level 40. Just wait until you see the other classes pull far ahead of you at 42+. Really during end game raids I feel like I'm not making any difference in my group, pretty much doesn't matter what songs I'm playing. My dps I could really care less about....I'm fine doing 110-120 dps, I always end up in the middle of the pack....which is what i expect to do since I'm supposed to be a jack of all trades or whatever, but the whole thing about dirges and their debuffs is crazy. We are really lacking in how effective they are. We should be opposite of troubs, and they can buff pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] well. IMO we should be using most of our conc. slots for debuffs, but really what is worth the slots other then CCC? So instead of playing the role that I thought I would when I chose to go dirge, I'm playing like a **** Troub, throwing up mostly stat buffs, my one good debuff (CCC, this is my specialty?) and playing my **** mana song. Really, why aren't our skills scaled past 42? Mana regen should be atleast HALF of what a chanter can do, plus all the other stuff that has already been said on this post. I don't want to be the best at dps and all that, I just want to be able to do what a dirge is supposed to do well, not just 1/4 as good as another class can do. Anyways just wanted to say that all the dirges that haven't reached the end game yet and are saying that the LEVEL 50'S aren't playing the class right, should really not even comment if you don't have complaints yet. Just wait until you hit 50 and see what we are talking about. Devs coming in here and seeing that we are arguing the fact that some of our skills suck probably don't pay much attention to what we say because of this.
First of all, does it really help your case to say that "nearly" everyone is below level 40? That's the same as saying "some" of the people are above level 40. I'm not here to fight, though. I came to learn about the problems Dirges face, and the ways they make the most out of their characters. Fact: there are Dirges who participate in the highest-level content in the game. There was a time when certain classes (Druid? Necromancer? Ranger?) simply would not be allowed to attend a top-end raid in EQ1. We do exist, and we do contribute. As recently as 2 months ago, a level 50 Defiler I know said Dirges were a critical component of all their high-end raids. He told me it was estimated that their debuffs multiply the damage output of the party by a factor of 2.5 (250%). Have things changed so much? Was that team of level 50 raid-goers wrong? Probably a little of both ... but recent posts listing a Dirge as the number 3 damage-dealer on a level 50 raid also tell me they aren't obsolete. I came here because I wanted to be the very best Dirge I could be. It feels like 80% of the posters I found when I got here just came to gripe about things they don't like, though. I've picked up a couple helpful tips, and I'll keep coming back as long as I do find new advice ... but the ranting and negativity are making it harder and harder to click my "Dirge" link every day. Obviously, all the other classes have it easier than we do. Even Inquisitors.
Sigh once again he tries to be an expect, and once again he fails miserably. I'm sorry there is no way, any Dirge is going to increase DPS by 250% haha thats the funniest [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] I have ever heard. Sigh, oh well.
I have parsed everything since if first downloaded parser around lvl 20 or so. First thing i did was /log and open parser as I played. I just liked to know how I did and groupmates and such. But once you get to 40+ I find myself not parsing anymore. I don't want to know how I am doing compared to others anymore. I would rather just keep imagining I am helping alot more than I am. I still enjoy playing my dirge alot, don't get me wrong. We just don't contribute to groups like we did in the 30s. I don't really care about my dps, only group dps, and I increased group dps more at 35 than at 45. By the way, anyone notice another decrease in dirge proc? I think as it turns blue it procs less and less. Only 30% from 50 and have adept of newest proc in bank so maybe will change after that, but did some testing last night and after 30 minutes of parsing, i had a proc rate of .9%, thats point 9, not 5% as listed, i could have been unluckly, or it could be that its a blue skill, just a thought Dahon Crushbone Vae Victis
The debuffs for certain epic mobs are essential, that no other classes out there apart from the dirge could deal with. Aphyxia in Lavastorm is one such encounter. All of the melee characters in that raid would hit the mob for single digits up to the high teens without any debuff on it (the mob has an insane amount of Mitigation). With Clara's Crazed Cacophony alone, a single dirge on that raid can effectively triple the amount of melee dps against that encounter. After seeing the various encounters in epic situations, not all classes are ideal for given encounters. A warlock verses a mob that is noxious immune, a wizard against elemental immune. Clara's is a catch all debuff for melee damage, crush, pierce and slash, not too many other classes have that ability. Granted, this should not be the class defining role of the dirge, just one spell, but in reality this is the main reason among a couple of others to have a dirge along in these encounters. Since the guild I am raiding with does not have a strong bard presense, actually I am the only high level dirge available, I am put into the MT group. Discordant Boon is the reason for that. I currently have Adept 3, which adds a decent amount of Mitigation and good amount of Avoidance to the MT (main tank) and MA (main aggro). Harls is added to that to give a boost in STR and AGL, which can only help with Mitigation and Avoidance as well. The problem with this is that we are not as utility oriented as we are made to believe to be. We have a damage proc that has a 5% chance of going off...which seems to look good on paper, but when used in combat, still does not add sufficient amount of damage to be considered in my spell line up. Brias is another spell that looks like a wow neat kind of song, but you consider that Adept3 only gives 14 power per tick, it is nothing compared to enchanter lines, not really useful for encounter situations, it just doesnt do enough. Daros is a decent ability, Selos Chords of Cessitation, which is the level 40 chosen ability is far superior to that. Married with Breavement, we can drain a good amount of power from the target that I am hitting, and some from the rest of the encounter. Also ensnares and attack speed slows the encounter. Now this is what I call a decent utility debuff, this is the kind of song we should have in our normal abilities, not as a chosen skill. Jael's Dreadful Depletion and all of those spell lines... is a poor joke. Total fluff combat ability line that has no place for dirges. Cry of the Dead is something I use in VERY dire situations, the cast time is not justified for the damage that it does and the pitiful amount of health regained from this tap. If I am bored, I might use this spell. Lithe Disbelief is currently broke in my opinion. The amount of times it procs in an encounter drains too much of my power to be justified. Broken, in the way that if the proc goes off, it SHOULD STOP trying to proc any further, or have the power drain on each successful proc reduced by 50% or more. Wail of the Banshee, level 50 ability that shares NO OTHER SPELL LINE WE EVER HAD BEFORE. For a level 50 ability, it has insane power requirements for so little damage. If there was a 15 mob encounter, sure I think it would be worth it, but for normal raiding or encounters, it will go unused. I can see having this spell, if we had other DoT spells previously, but again it looks like whomever worked on the dirge spell lines had no idea what to give us at 50, threw a dart at a dartboard and gave us something quite random. I get a little miffed when I look at our level 50 songs and compare them to the bezerker or the warlock, there is no way that ours is in the same league as those. I could go on and on about ALOT of the spell lines that are totally uncharacteristic of what I think of a dirge. When I chose this class, this is the line of text that was promoted by SoE about the dirge: Dirges use the power of their chaotic music to weaken their enemies and inspire the fury of their allies. We kinda do some of that, but not to the degree that should be for our class. As a scout class, we should be dealing debuffs that would increase our dps and our allies, weither it be weakening our opponent or augmenting our party members, not doing AE damage with spells like Wail of Woe and other poorly thought out abilities. I am for one about having utility outside of that role, but they are really uncharacteristically non-dirge like. I want to see a re-evaluation of the spell lines of the dirge, keep the ones that are in the description of the dirge, and trim the fat of the fluff. Message Edited by Laureous on 03-26-2005 07:23 AM
In response to SalusVictus. I was only saying that alot of the dirges that disagree with anyone saying that the class has problems haven't hit the point where it becomes evident. Yeah, up until the 40's we majorly contribute to groups but it's like we hit a wall once we get past level 40 or so. And how would a defiler know what the hell he was talking about if he doesn't play the class. Alot of the groups I get into think "sweet a dirge....they rock" but that opinion is coming from their experience prior to level 40+. Please if you don't have a problem don't come in here and kill any chance that we will be taken seriously.....we ARE NOT saying that dirges BELOW LEVEL 40 have problems, but the HIGH LEVEL DIRGES see quite a difference with the groups benefits from our buffs/debuffs. That means prior to level 40 I DIDN'T SEE ANY PROBLEMS WITH MY CLASS, but as I started to approach LEVEL 50 I FELT LESS AND LESS OF A FACTOR. Why would someone playing the same class argue about this? Don't you want to reach level 50 and still feel like you're worth something to a raid group? How many fixes have other classes recieved? Now how many times have the dirges been given any attention? Did the dirge class magically get lucky and come out on launch as the only perfectly working class? With half of us saying that we need work and the other half saying that we don't, what are the Devs supposed to think? "Hey well they are saying that their class is fine so we can concentrate on fixing another class" is something I think they might say. This thread isn't to argue about our effectiveness........it's just people's 2cp about what the dirge class needs work on. Since the Dev's don't seem to notice these posts, maybe we could get all of us to send a bunch of PM's out to them. I'm sure they'd take more notice if their inbox was full of dirge class complaints. Lulamdar 50 Dirge Vae Victis Crushbone Message Edited by Lulamdar on 03-26-2005 03:35 PM Message Edited by Lulamdar on 03-26-2005 04:53 PM
As I get closer to 50, (I'm almost 41 now) one thing I've noticed in CT groups and such, is that it seems like it doesn't matter what songs I play, be it debuff or buff. They seem not to matter, or make a difference. If I let a buff slip, or don't turn a debuff on, the fights go down the same. It's like I don't matter. The rest of the group hits just as hard, and kills just as fast whether I'm doing anything or not. People like me for run speed, and they feel the debuffs / buffs help what seems like a tiny amount. I don't want to be the big damage dealer. If I wanted that I'd have played an assassin or something. I like playing support characters. So much that I have a Guardian (lvl 22), and an Inquisitor (lvl 6 so still a priest), and my main, Dirge (lvl 40.8). I don't want groups to think they can't do without me like a tank or a healer of course, but I do want to make a difference in a group with my buffs / debuffs, and right now I don't feel like I'm doing that. (all my spells / abilities are adept1 or greater) I make no claims at being a game designer, so what I know about fixing us is little. What I would like though, is if my debuffs packed a little more oomph. When I cast, say, Daro's and Clara's on a mob, I would expect to see the tank take quite a bit less damage, and in turn, deal quite a bit more. As it is right now, why would anyone want our debuffs anymore than any other class's standard debuffs. We're no better at debuffing it would seem, and I always thought of it as my job. I'd like it if when people think "boy we could use a debuffer in our group" one of the first thoughts that comes to mind is Dirge. Aside from that, I still love playing my class, and he'll always be my main I think. I always get a group when I turn LFG on, so it's not like I have the plague when it comes to getting groups. I'd just like to feel like I'm pulling my weight a little better. Edit: After reading a few more posts from my level 50 bretheren, it seems that my songs DO do something, I'm probably just not feeling as useful as I'd like to be though. I will admit, I do get snatched up within minutes of turning on my LFG flag, every time I turn it on, so I must doing something right. Message Edited by Avocet on 03-27-2005 04:44 AM
Avocet, yes it really gets that way on towards 50. I just hit 50 last week and I still feel the same way. Letting my buffs drop is barely noticable in a good group. About the only time I see a difference is when we have a tank who is right on the cusp of being too low to fight the mobs we are on. Raising his defence by a level helps out great there. But if we have a decent tank who is at the appropriate level, we never miss a beat regardless of song. I am going to do a lot of testing now that im 50. Ill commit to sharing the info when I get it together.
Well, it lookslike priests are gonna get some loving or most of em. I will be watching this closely. Supposedly they upping thier damage too . WIll be funny if I get outdamaged by a healer
