Devs Please Read (Problem with Swashbucklers)

From this thread I conclude that Swashbucklers don't work for level 40+ power players who like maximum efficiency and have little patience for people who like to explore alternative options in gameplay or who don't play "how they're supposed to".

On the other hand there are those who see some utility in the skills that don't address the main role. They are the casual players. They don't care to be the best, they work with what they're given and while realizing that there are skills that need fixing, they also have the breath to wait for that to happen.

Yes, I noticed that the AC debuffs don't seem to do anything. I stopped using them until fixed. Yes, I could tell that the monk was doing good damage from mob where he fought versus when he was afk and it was confirmed by a look at the logs. I thought, "nice, perhaps I should roll a monk, too", but then I recalled the looks of their AQ armor...

I find there's a lot of utility to the Swashbuckler, despite some broken skills. Don't be alarmed by the warnings of the high level players unless you are after the maximum efficient, "über" class. SOE has a lot of time to fix the level 40+ Swashbucklers before the peak of the bell curve and I get there.

I am pretty happy with my swash, never said I wasnt only gripes I got are the tons of broken skills and out insult of a lvl 50 skill, and yes this is a very big disappointment for all lvl 50, while assa get a 5K+ hit we get well nothing cause its nothing, dont try to find uses for it you wont.

Also in your respond "let them whine when we get that lvl it will all be fixed". I dont remember buying EQ2 and having the box say "You can alrdy play but if you level too fast a lot of your skills will be bugged beyond reason".

There's a difference between "Tanking in a pinch" and "Wanting to be a tank" Riosk. If I wanted to be a tank, I would've played a fighter. However I am more open minded to different strategies and not quite so rigid in my thoughts about what skills Swashy's should have. Additionally, I never said Swashy's should be tanks on raids, but your penchant for exageration strikes again.

But next time you let your cleric or mage die because you refuse to be a "tank" let me know.

Thats just my point!!! Hah, yes if my tank DIES then I will have to tank....but the problem is usually there is a monk or some form of another fighter in the group that can backup tank.

You've just made my point and you don't even know it!

IF THE TANK DIES I HAVE TO TANK!


So yes your right, for 20 seconds while they revive the tank I would be able to activate it.....which would do 100 damamge everytime I am hit. The problem is the mobs you fight at my lvl can 2-3 shot you before you die. I would much rather cast dexterous slashing to try to parry some attacks or cast shadow slip, lose aggro, then use flamboyant strike + treachously blade to get it back again so I toss aggro around until they can get the tank back up and going.


The thing is is, for bad players this would be useful....however the type of people I group with rarely die. Lvl 40-50 my group never wiped and the only people to die was a healer once because of a stupid lvl 50 groupx2 mob in PF (yes the knockback one)(we still won).

I never leveled with debt...

At lvl 50 the only time I ever died or anybody in my group died was from miscalculation on named mobs or new zones we haven't explored yet. Like the fear access had a tactic to it to get through it....before we discovered that we died a few times........but however when the tank dies it usually takes seconds for the other people to die if there is no true fighter backup tank (considering you fight 3 ++ mobs at the same time.....must have a good ccer...if mezz breaks the fighter must get aggro back and then the ccer remezzes)

It's the point that as you level you start to fight more adds at a time. In solusk eye you fight up to 3-4 adds at ONE time because of how close spawns are and all the wandering mobs.


My point is, 20 seconds of 100 damage back when hit doesn't make much sense to a class that isn't meant to tank, and is meant to stay behind a mob and use high damage techniques.

It is like giving a guardian at lvl 50 a backattack....when guardians are MEANT to fight from the front. May be if they gave them a backattack that generates EXTREME aggro...it would be useful for peeling a mob off somebody when he loses aggro. They would actually use that a lot!

However, lvl 50 specials are supposed to be NEW and an attack that shares no timers with any other skills before it. Giving a swashbuckler Inspired Daring (100 damage hitback whenever hit) is worthless to a class that doesn't tank ALL the time. Yes, I admit in VERY rare situations will it be useful. So rare I haven't run across the need for it in a month of playing.

In other words, lvl 50 specials should be geared to all styles of gameplay and aid the purpose of the class it is given to. Swashbuckler = dps and not tank. Therefore our lvl 50 special should relate to our main function.

I mean does it mean anything to you that ALL your attacks are pretty much back attacks or flanking attacks......or skills like Flurry of Blades which if you miss once the series ends...you will miss 1 if you activate that from the front more then likely and waste over 100 power for a weak attack. IT WAS MEANT TO USE FROM BEHIND OR THE SIDE.

My point is, lvl 50 special is for ALL PURPOSES!!! NOT ONE SPECIFIC PURPOSE!

Only point in this game is grouping/raidage...therefore my purpose is to do damage from behind (more dps cause less misses and more higher hits). Getting hit and then doin 100 damage back is utterly USELESS!!!!!!!!!!

May be you can find a purpose for it....but that means your probabley a bad player because you aren't playing a swashbuckler or a scout for that matter to the fullest....aka behind the mob usin high damage techs. If you are fighting behind the mob MOST of hte time then your defending a cause that you contradict...because you know you probabley won't use yer lvl 50 special ALL THE TIME


Wizards use ice comet ALL THE TIME
Assassins use assissinate whenever it is up and for a specific mob (usually boss) ALL THE TIME
Rangers use their 900 damage AoE ALL THE TIME
Troubadors use their 40 sec mezz ALL THE TIME (better then ours....only mezz they pretty much get 1-50 thats any good)

thats just a few lvl 50 specials....they use them all the time for extra damage/utility

My point is, OUR SKILL CAN'T BE USED BUT A VERY SPECIFIC (AND EXTREMELY RARE...(once a year probabley)....SITUATIONS MAKING THE SKILL AKA WORHTHLESS FROM LACK OF USE.


Why can't you just realize if you agreed with me then you can work to CHANGE it to a damage technique or better?

Riosk I understand your point. Why do Swashy's get a good, but limited use ability when so many others get abilities that are more commonly useable? You're wrong about troubadors, they don't use their mez if a true mezzing class is in the group and your "perfect" group includes an illusionist. Troubadors are scouts, not crowd control (subscribing to your theory that scouts should be damage) so why should they be mezzing? With a proper CC class in the group they don't. If there isn't one they do. Kind of like my idea that if there is no tank in the group, a swashbuckler can pick up the slack, doesn't mean he should do it all the time.

It's blatantly obvious the ability is limited use. This may, or may not, have been the devs intention. We don't know. What are you going to do if they come back and say level 50 abilities were never meant to be "used all the time"? You're feedback is valuable, they'll make a decision one way or another regardless of what I post. I appreciate that you give me so much credit, that if I agreed with you things would change. But you're wrong there, regardless of whether I agree with you or not. You really think if I posted vehemantly "Don't change it!" (which mind you, I never have) the devs would then not change it? You give me way to much credit for someone you keep insulting and insinuating is a "bad player".

My point is the skill is not useless, just specialized in purpose. My additional point is that I do not subscribe the thought that your level 50 ability must be some "special" tribute to you. You don't "win" the game at 50, you don't get a door prize. I've played enough MMO's to know that the game goes on. That your class value is your entire package, not one single ability. I appreciate your wish to have it be something special. I might even agree that swashbucklers don't have one single "defining" ability. We're an amalagamation of talents, and that's our defining ability.

I see the class, and its usefulness, differently than you. Neither of us is right or wrong.

The point is and please believe us now for once that the lvl 50 special is useless totally, no use at all, pure junk crap... I think if they gave us a 1 DS skill for 10 secs you would still say it was usefull. it aint its junk, I would have rather had no special then this junk.

Bards = utility

mezz = utility

I think a bard will be mezzing a lot more then they I use my damage shield

Case closed, your official an idiot

Same could be said of you, after making this post http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=1094

So no one else fees like this was a filler class ?

So far in my experience I have had the same ability as another class just highly watered down. So watered down in fact alot of them become useless. And when it comes to overall utility, aka "jack of all trades", bards fit that role perfectly.

So again I am left with the feeling of a filler class. Maybe its possible that they were planning the game with 6 subclasses per class... and they were finishing up scout and needed 1 more and came up with Swashbuckler. Give them a skill from every class!! but dont make it too good that the other class loses its standing in that area. Oh and package it nicely as a charming rogue so people who roleplay will be inticed by it.

The biggest contribution I see coming from this class is hate distribution. We have many spells that privy just to a swash that are hate related. But thats about it. In a group scenario it is more than extremely rare to see the group worry about hate control. Not to say its not useful... but groups dont worry enough about it to make this class important enough to seek out just for that reason.

Those who talk about dps... if your over 42 or so... let me know if your still in the top 2 dps in your group.

I've stopped my complaining about DPS, after I saw myself outdo a monk i'm glad I chose a swashbuckler. More or less I am complaining about debuffs and our lvl 50 special.

Yes I agree with that, I chose a swashbuckler because it SOUNDED cool. I wanted to be qeynos because I knew most people would choose qeynos simply because it is easier. It isn't dark and dirty and hard to navigate. It is light and beautiful and everybody is friendly.

I should of been a brigand after seeing their skills.

My point is swashbucklers are a filler class.....it is the least planned class out of all the scout classes.

I think they started out thinking of 3 different classes (aka predator, bard, rogue).....then they made an assassin, troubador, brigand and worked on those 3 first. Then they made rangers, dirges, and swashbucklers based off of their counterparts. They tried to balance them but it hasn't been done yet.

Nothing is stopping you. In fact, please do. I'm sure the swashbuckler community would be happy to help you make the switch.

Speak for yourself!
This is an important and informative thread about swash issues, If you dont see that maybe you should disapear and not Rioisk thats actually trying to help the swashies and the community.

After weeks of parsing fights and seeing that I hang in there with the best of them, yes, even at 40+ (43 at the moment), I gave up my parsing and worrying about my DPS. I know now I can hang with the best. I can also do other things on TOP of the DPS (evac and group stealth). People have parsed fights as we go and I am usually on top of the list. Now, I don't owrry about it.

1) I can do a lot of damage
2) I enjoy playing the class
3) I have utility past just DPS
4) Groups want me
5) I have fun

What more do I need?

When I become useless to groups and stop having fun or get to 50 and bored, then I will change to another class.
Message Edited by Naggybait on 01-25-2005 03:57 PM

Yes and I get groups as well simply because I am probabley the one of the most active people in my guild and a great player (aka I know how to play a swashbucler to 100% of their abilities and I don't get myself killed or others killed).

However, I'm fighting more for swashbucklers as a whole and not my particular situation. In other words, if a monk is available it will be taken over us. If a troubador is available it will be taken over us. If an enchanter is available it will be taken over us.

It's the matter that there are specific classes that always will find a group and there are filler classes.....swashbuckler is becomming a filler class because it does nothing unique or special that other classes don't get.

I am reminded of a monk dmg mise, but I can't take dmg (monks can tank almost better then guardians at 50). If there is a bard in the group for disarm/evac then why choose a wimpy DPS over a sturdy DPS? Thats all your deciding between a rogue and a monk at that point.

If they fixed our debuffs and fixed our lvl 50 special then our role would be equal with a monk as a major debuffer of stats. Monks can debuff status (aka silencing is prob their best tech). If our debuffs worked then the group will grab a swashbuckler simply because they like the way we debuff mobs up.

Mainly I see them debuffing AGI, AC, and interupting spellcasting. I see swashbucklers as the perfect class that makes mobs more hittable with the lower AGI and lower AC and stops spellcasters from doing too much dmg. That is a specific role that nobody really has and would give swashbucklers a better "role" in a group. So that the next time you do /ooc lvl xx Swashbuckler LFG...people will be in group chat /g grab him, swashbucklers make targets so much easier to hit. THis makes up for the ability that monks get to tank and silence and stun and such.


I'm only contributing to the community to make this class a better/more desirable class. I realize this game isn't that balanced from 40-50....and that is what i'm trying to change. If you don't believe me, live in fantasy world and don't responde with any slight problems you notice about the class. It is constructive discussions that lead us to /feedback. I feedback every day about this stuff, may be if everybody else did we could have a class that is not a placefiller any longer.

Thanks

I think it goes more like this:

Player1: Hey, there's a monk and a swashbuckler available to fill our 6th slot. Which one should I get?
Player2: That depends. Who are they?

In my experience, the person behind the toon is way more important than the class (unless you need a healer or tank, duh).

I agree with that =P

hmm..firstly..do we get an award for having the most DPS or something?Secondly as a lvl 31 swash iv been able to out DPS any class within 3 levels of me so far....if i felt like it...but uhm..why should i tank?Third those logs are nice..but useless. In order to make valid tests you need controls...just doing random parsers means nothing.ie,player skill levels/maturity levels will affect player capability.Equipment and skills(app,adept,master),iv seen a lot of logs...think one guy mentioned what type of equipment he was wearing vs the other people in the group.Connectivity issues.PC issues.Fatigue.All these things will make significant differences.In order to conduct valid testing you would need a lot more people operating under identical circumstances which is impossible without CSR/Dev support.What you are getting is the results of "ME as a SWASH vs Xperson as Xclass".If named spawns are at the same skill level percentile each spawn that would be the closest to controlled testing you could do...at least 1000 times,but hey if you got the patience....

If no single class is dealing significantly more damage then the others i think thats pretty much the way SOE intended,which is the way things are now....politically correct MMORPG /geh! All chars are pretty much equal thats what a combat balance is...people asked and SOE gave....now people dont want..go figure

Someday theyl get the bugs fixed,but right now theyr more concerned with making everything equal.....so were all bugged