Devs Please Read (Problem with Swashbucklers)

Syrano wrote:
Taunt - Very powerful, extremely useful. If you tank. If you picked a swashy and didn't expect to tank part of the time after looking at our ability list in beta then you had some bad expectations. We make great tanks in a pinch and Taunt rounds out our aggro control abilities. All of which work very well and as described.

I agree. Our primary role is not tanking. However, someone gave us a plethora of aggro control options when they designed us. Just because you do not want Swashbucklers to have these abilities does not mean they shouldn't. The devs clearly intended us to have some aggro management capacity, you need to get comfortable with that idea. There are at least 4 other scout classes that don't have them, that all fit the flavor of "Scout". THe "called upon to do so" part is where these abilities come in handy.

The concept that "Taunt" is useless to Swashbucklers is only true if *you* think taunt is useless. And the only reason you'd think that is if you *think* swashbucklers should NEVER be tanking. My counter point to this is just because you think that doesn't make it true.

My approach tends to not be "I want to be a tank" it was more, oh look, I get some aggro managmeent abilities, I wonder how well I tank. Wow, I tank pretty well. How can I use this to make my groups better? And from there we devise new strategies that work. Turns out, Swashy's are pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] useful as tanks in a pinch. But then, I'm not trying to force my class into being something it's not, I'm trying to play my class as it was given to me by the game. Personally I find a lot less aggravation in the second route.

The purpose this post was not to get into a flag waving contest about who is more superiour than whom based on beta experience. It's a nice ASSumption you make, but an innacurate one. During beta, things change like crazy, almost daily. But that last day to release... very little. From launch on, all things are always in flux (macroscopic level). From year to year what classes are best at what will change and balance evolves.

You are right though, SOE does not publish skill lists. In fact, in all of their games (EQ, EQOA, SWG, etc.) they never do. The manual leaves them up for you to discover. However, in the case of EQ2, the skill lists WERE published with tehir in game descriptions up through 45th level right here on these very forums by Moorgard himself. Many good fan sites had the list up through 50 as they were in beta. As for scouts, the www.scoutsanctuary.com was one of the few fan sites that actually had THE list as it was at release up through 50th with in game descriptions.

Granted not every player is going to research all of this before they choose. Which means they could get suprised easily (the in game class quests only really address very loose definitions of class roles and mostly from an RP persepective). But that's a case of mistaken expectations. You "thought" you were getting one thing and you got another. That does not mean it should change to what you "thought" or "wanted" to get. It means you made a mistaken choice. It's kinda like being at the grocery store, there's a sign over a bunch of bannana's that says "Pears!". So you buy one and happily tell everyone you bought a Pear. Only to find out it was a bannana. No amount of whining is going to turn that bannana into a pear. (The inevitable refund argument comes up here so if you want an even sillier analogy, pretend you already ate the bannana you thought was a pear).

So long as you're feedbacking something you have direct experience with I agree. There is a lot of misinformation floating around on this message board. Yes, I have seen parses where zerkers and fighters have out dps'd scouts (even assasins). Heck my own logs have shown that. I've also seen parses where scouts come out on top and where myself, as a swashy, beat out an Assassin more than once.

In reality, anyone who watches group damage parses religiously will recognize that there is HUGE variance in damage done per fight, per class. More objective analysis needs to be done. EQ2's system of heavy reliance on special attacks (nearly %80 of all damage comes from specials) and the fact that specials do a varrying range of damage and are dependant on how quickly someone can activate them leads to this.

Do not believe everything you read for one. Do not even believe what I am posting. All of it is data points that can help you make up your mind but making up your own mind is what's important, regardless of who agrees or disagrees with you on a message board. If you don't parse your logs, then it shouldn't matter anyway how much DPS you do. If you *do* parse your logs then make your own judgements based on what you see from your own results. You said yourself you currently don't have issues. I too am curious what happens as I move closer to 50. But I'm not going to react on the rather scarce information that is currently available.

Your funny Syrano, you keep saying dev gave us tons of agro skill what a load of crap, we got 1 YES 1 tuant line out of 20 or so skilllines. We are ROGUES when will that sip thru for you? Every rogue since the dawn of RPGs has been a class to AVOID agro and to do dmg FROM THE BACK. Yes lets make a RPG where the clerics are king of nukes the fighters heal and the rogues tank. Most ppl will chose their class based on the name, they dont go look thru skill lists...

Syrano dont you start feeling very alone on your "everything is fine" position, well thats maybe because everything aint fine, you been saying from when you were lvl 20 that me and rioisk were just whining , you must be starting to realise, now that you are getting near 40 that we werent but I think you dont dare to admit your mistake. If you for one second think that giving us a tank skill as our lvl 50 special is fine then you are a complete git.

Thank you

Rohal
lvl 50 Swashbuckler
Lavastorm
Message Edited by Dergon on 01-21-2005 12:57 AM

Hrmm. Last I checked I also have Self Preservation, that helps us keep aggro off ourselves. Then there's Swarthy Distraction, that allows us to increase hate on anyone in the group, including ourselves. False Blade allows us to increase our own hate (it isn't all that useful for it's damage output, but you probably know that already), playful swipe let's us decrease hate on ourselves, so does Evade. Whether you like it or not, we have 7 abilities that involve controlling Hate. Whomever designed the class clearly gave us this utility for a reason. Not just to tank, but to help the tanks in our group become even better tanks. As a result, we should be able to grab Hate when we want it (on single targets) and get rid of hate at any time. In practice I find this is pretty much true.

When I say and when most ppl say "agro skill" (counterpart of "de-agro skills") they mean skills to gain agro , not to lose agro all those skills you said are skill that are used to get mobs of us , so to NOT TANK, but what you keep saying is that we are some hybrid between tank and DPS , we arent , rogue's never were meant to tank. Only skill line that can only be used to taunt is our gibe line and this was the one i was refering too.
Also there also some of ours skills that say "gain agro" like our false bravado but that is a "bad side-effect" not something you would want in essense all our attacks are agro skills, these skills just generate a little extra so should be used with more care.
We arent any more tank orientated then any other scouts class just cause we get 1 pure taunt line. We are rogue , rogues I am sure you played any other RPG before and know what a rogue is...

I said we get 1 taunt line all those skills mentioned are detaunts or skills that are intended to be used like that , like the swarthy's distraction what you keep saying is that we are some hybrid between tank and DPS , we arent , rogue's never were meant to tank. Only skill line that can only be used to taunt is our gibe line and this was the one i was refering too.
Or are brigand also hybrid tanks cause they got this
Level 24 Cuss Banditry Generates hate on the target.
Also there also some of ours skills that say "gain agro" like our false bravado but that is a "bad side-effect" not something you would want in essense all our attacks are agro skills, these skills just generate a little extra so should be used with more care.
We arent any more tank orientated then any other scouts class just cause we get 1 pure taunt line. We are rogue , rogues I am sure you played any other RPG before and know what a rogue is...
Message Edited by Dergon on 01-21-2005 07:42 AM

Because we all know that classes in EQ2 are exactly like those in other games.

But regardless, I'm with Syrano on the tanking issue (he forgot the taunt/haste line, too, btw. That's 4 taunts, 4 detaunts by my count). It's not my preferred mode (though I enjoy it in small doses), and swashbucklers (and yes, Brigands -- that's why Syrano alluded to 4 scouts not intended to part-time tank) are certainly not the most efficient option when it comes to tanking, we're among the best choices to "settle" for when a fighter is impractical/not available.

As for the person who quoted all of our non-Gibe-line taunting effects as "bad side effects" -- do other classes have bad taunting side effects listed in their descriptions? Do guardians have skills that have "but reduces hate" in their description? The taunting side effects are pretty unique to rogues, as far as I can tell. That does two things: It makes you have to keep an eye on how you use your skills (mixing taunting side effects with detaunts) -- and I think you'll agree with me there; but it also opens up the option of intentionally using these and avoiding detaunts in order to taunt.

As such, I believe I'm correct in saying that we're the only non-fighter class that gets specific taunt effects (and not just hate generated from buffs or heals or damage) at our fingertips to taunt at will. That's pretty special, and when combined with a class that can take damage reasonably well, can be used to our advantage in some group makeups. I won't pretend it's the highest priority of a rogue, because it's not. But when those situations come to the fore, we've got the skills to step up and make the best of it.


Now, all that aside, the real reason I was going to post. I think Exoro's got a bit of a point on the group stealth issue. Yes, only furies and rogues get group invis/stealth. BUT, compare the two: furies do it at full speed, rogues do it at either partial speed or get a throwaway buff when it breaks (that doesn't even work). And, heck, furies don't even take concentration. At 45 and above, I know who I'd rather have invis the group. It'd be really nice if the least they could do would be to throw a swashbuckling (or banditry) buff on the smuggles like snoop has for skullduggery, so at least we rogues could have the more potent two of the 3 options.

Life I proved earlier in this post, several non - fighter classes have "specific tuant effect" also why do you say "a class that can take damage reasonably well?". All scouts tank the same, oh and if your thinking about he parry increase skill, bards and predators get that too.

Message Edited by Dergon on 01-21-2005 11:08 AM

Why yes, I am pre-40 (38th, will make 39 or 40 this weekend). But from what I'm reading around here, our tankability only gets better closer to 50. See all those posts complaining about the effectiveness of Agility tanking? That applies to us, scouts. In my mid 20's I was posting here about the effectiveness of agility tanking but no one wanted to listen then either. Fact is, against a single target, WITHOUT using any agility stacking exploits, paired with a good healer (Mystic in my case) we can tank single targets very well. Fighter is still a way better choice but I've tanked orange and red double over-cons well enough. Yes, it takes the right kind of group make up, having a dirge, enchanter and mystic is very useful. Without those three you have to scale back what you can do.

Regardless, agility tanking works. And I'm not talking about the ridiculous Agility levels here, anyone can view my profile and know my agility is nothing to write home about atm. Neither is my armor!

Actually, no Rahol. I don't believe I've ever used the word "hybrid". There are no hybrids in EQ2. What I have said and will continue to say is that we have the ability to "Tank in a pinch". The difference between you and I is that I look at the skills we are given and start planning out what I can do with them, you look at the skills we're given and want to know why you can't do what you want to do.

Bad side effect? On False Bravado? Look at the name of the skill. It's SUPPOSED to taunt. The damage on that thing is nothing to write home about and not meant to be. It's hardly any different then Nimble Cut. However the succesive hit causes a taunt. It has a slower casting time too. This is not an effective DPS skill. It *is* an effective tool to use when I need to gain aggro. But you apparantly never *need* to gain aggro. That's just a difference in grouping tactics. I use this all the time to get aggro back when I find myself tanking (which is not that often, but does happen when our regular fighter isn't online) or, if the tank can't hold aggro, to get it off the casters.

I sure as hell don't use it as a damaging attack. Not worth the power->damage ratio.

I agree that our self haste ability with a taunt has a taunt side effect. As generally if I want the haste, I don't want the aggro (getting hit loses it). But, given that I adapt to my situations daily, I *have* used this specifically for its hate inducing properties before. When I need to get aggro, I pull out all the stops.

Kaffis said a lot of what I would've said, thanks Kaffis. What you seem to think of as a "rogue" is what EQ2 consideres a "predator". However, you went Qeynos and probably didn't want to be a bow slinger so you chose Swashy instead. That's alright, it's a good choice. But frankly what about the word "Swashbuckler" implies to you some kind of thief that sneaks and does damage from behind?

Swashbucklers, be they pirates, sword fighters, musketeers or what have you, were Swordsman. Extravagant, flamboyant and rarely the type that "snuck up from behind and assasinated" their targets. You've been trying to drag this out of me for ages so here it is. In my opinion a swashbuckler is a daring "rogue" (rogue does not mean stealthy thief, it also means charming rapscallion, shifty, out for themselsves). A sword fighter extrordinaire, relying on depth of skill and finesse of dexterity rather than brute force and heavy armor. They delight in baiting their enemies while being flamboyant, almost non-chalant in their attitude towards their opponent. Dodging and parrying, weaving in and out of combat. Taunting their opponents while slipping strikes in from all directions, often attacking exposed areas in the defenses of their targets.

You see, in my mind, the taunts and jabs, ability to distract or p*ss off are all standard faire for a "Swashbuckler". And EQ2's implementation of that is near perfect from a skill description standpoint (wish so many of them weren't bugged).

Your definition, and it's not necessarily wrong, is that "Swashbuckler" is just a fancy name for "Backstabbing Damage Dealer".
Message Edited by Syrano on 01-21-2005 01:56 PM

False bravado, I aint talking about False blade. But on false blade that skill is a copy of a rogue skill in FXII used to lose agro to the tank with. If it was intended to gain agro it would be pretty stupidly designed, its intended to use and then put attack off and then for tank to get the agro hit.

Thanks for the correction on taunt side effects. I don't generally go for mages, so I haven't spent a lot of time perusing their spell lists.

I didn't say that rogues take damage any better than other scouts. But they take it better than mages. And you can make a good case that a scout (any scout) is better off taking the damage than a priest, because neither is a drastically better tank than the other, and I'd rather the priest not be taking the stuns and interrupts.

So I was merely suggesting that the combination of the two -- taunt effects and acceptable tanking -- makes tanking a reasonable option for a rogue when the situation precludes having the fighter tank.

Oh, by the way. That mage spell you quoted looks like it affects summoned minions -- pets. So sure, I wouldn't mind stepping aside for a mage pet to tank, either. More damage for me.

Also, I checked the other scouts -- brigands I've already included as excellent taunters. For bards, I found that dirges seem to get a targettable buff much like Swarthy distraction. Troubadors get a group version that does some other buffs as well. Rangers get a ranged copy of the false blade line, and assassins get no taunting anythings. So it seems to me that my claim that rogues have the best arsenal of direct taunting arts (whether gibe or a side effect) was actually quite accurate, from where I'm sitting.

Editted to close a tag.
Message Edited by Kaffis on 01-21-2005 11:41 AM

I meant to refer to False Blade, my apologies. Using it to lose aggro to the tank is "one" possibility but i've not seen confirmation that the "next hit" has "much aggro" for anyone but yourself. The skill description is very unclear. I have yet to do real testing to see if the False Blade icon disappears when someone else hits the mob before I do.

I do know that odds are, unless you stop attacking during the casting time, you're going to be the one that gets the "next" hit because your Combat Arts will fire immediately after the skill lands (unless you're using really slow weapons). Which is how I tend to use this skill as a Taunt. It doesn't do enough damage to justify it's use in normal combat.

I agree about some of our skills needing to be fixed so they actually do what they say, but Rioisk, I disagree with your constant whining about how we "dont go good DPS".

I do great DPS that's comparable to assassin DPS at the same level. Hearing that you can't even keep up with a BARD, something seems amiss. What's the makeup of your groups normally?

-Cikala
Message Edited by Cikala on 01-21-2005 01:24 PM
Message Edited by Cikala on 01-21-2005 01:25 PM

Some of yall are idiots...at least syrano tried to post a problem with the skills (that i have done numerous times on here)

Yes, our dps isn't BAD....we are comparable a monk...with more AC and scout skills. Monks get to tank. So I'm not saying we are terrible.

May be bards don't do as much dps....but granted bards can perform all scout skills....why not just fill the other dps melee slots with monks/zerkers if they do comparable dps AND CAN TANK if needed (MT goes down).

It's what so illogical about not being a bard....

The lvl 50 troubador in my guild can buff up a lvl 50 guardian so much that mobs can't hit him. We took on 6 ++ lvl 48 mobs at the same time in Sol Eye and he couldn't be hit. The healers were standing around not having to heal. Misses were scrolling down the page.


My point is...the parse says that the lvl 50 troubador was doing 100dps average

I was doing 180 dps average

Granted I am almost double a bard....I HAD BARD BUFFS

So take out he bard I am doing about 140 dps probabley


So in other words...bards can do these things:

Decent dps by themselves
power regen that keeps the whole group spamming skills
mezz (double the length of ours and more....can keep a target mezzed indefinitely (we can't)
super buff stats/resists so much that tank can't be hit

What can swashbucklers do?

pretty good dps (compared with best in game melee)
mezz that is gimpy and takes too much power for almost no time
group sneak (many other casters get FULL SPEED INVIS that lasts longer)
Poisons (broken currently off merchants....alchemist don't like ot make them on my server)
DEBUFFS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO WORK!!!!!!!!!!!! (Don't)




Which one would you chose granted you could pick ANY classes in the game for YOUR perfect group. IMO I would pick

Guardian
Zerker/wizard
Monk
Warden
Troubador
Illusionist/Coercer

Troubador does scout functions and super buffs group......monk/zerker takes dmg better then me and does the same dps......all my skills are obselete with an enchanter and a bard...as they have every single one of my utilitys ONLY BETTER





My problem you guys is our class isn't bad...but it isn't desired. They said all classes would be balanced in EQ2.....well bards have become out of the question THE best class to play. YES i have already started a bard alt so don't bug me because I am tired of being a swashbuckler because of how crappy they have made them.




I BEG THE DEVS TO FIX OUR SKILLS ARE DEBUFFS

I BEG THE DEVS TO DO SOMETHING TO STOP THIS INSANENESS OF BARDS


thank you

(btw, great compilation of skills that don't work on yer post syrano.....same thing as mine heh =P)




I hope yall realize how [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ty you will be if you don't start complaining now......most of yall have NO idea what 45+ is like with bards....they get REAL GOOD REAL FAST (250+ on stats....regen is out the window....hell I"D let the group take a bard over me because you level SO much faster...never wait on power and take much less dmg and do WAY more dmg).....even with out dps we could never match the effect a bard has.


BALANCE THE SCOUT CLASSES PLZ



Btw...Syrano I heard you said our lvl 50 special is good....the 20 second skill that acts a 100 dmg damage shield.....tell me...how often do you tank in a raid or in a group in general at lvl 38? I've never tanked but once past lvl 45...that was the last 2% of lvl 48-49...where i didn't even have the skill. Lvl 50...i haven't tanked ever yet.

HOW CAN YOU SAY IT IS GOOD?

I AM A DPS CLASS I WANT AN ATTACK THAT DOES DPS IN A RAID!!!!! SOMETHING FREAKIN I WILL USE!


If i don't get hit, its 20 seconds of wasted power and wasted 1 second cast time.....I never get hit therefore the ability will never add dps. IT IS A USELESS ABILITY ALL LVL 50 SWASHBUCKLERS AGREE!


Plz /feedback it....you have no idea how pissed you will be at lvl 50 and you realize how crap [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] this skill is.....geezus yall listen to the lvl 50 swashbucklers........WE KNOW WHATS WRONG WITH OUR CLASS WE"VE SEEN IT ALL!

my dps was fine until lvl 30 or so as well......they haven't balanced classes 30+ yet...and a lot of 20-30 is unbalanced. This game was not ready for release IMO as they only balanced lvls 1-20....

listen for once yall...

Riosk, admidst all the ranting there you make many valid points. I had a post all written responding to many but suffice it to say, you and I disagree on some core concepts.

It's upt the devs to decide if our level 50 ability needs changing. To answer one of your questions directly, at 38th I find a I tank a lot. Any number of posts on the combat forums will show you that right now, many scouts find themselves tanking even at your much lauded and worshiped level of 50. Your current tactics don't require you to. That's good. My current tactics and regular guild/group makeup often find me tanking. In such situations, I'd love a damage shield. Is it really 100pts a hit for 20 seconds? Holy cow that's a whopper of a damage shield, if it is I got all kinds of crazy ideas. You could put out all kinds of stupid DPS with that. Or is it a total of 100pts and it wears off?

As for the perfect group comments. Well, I'm of the belief there is no perfect group. If you can fix the situation (mob being fought etc.) then perhaps, so long as you qualify it with an "I Think" there could be a better group. However why wouldn't you replace your zerker/monk with any other DPS class? Or do you have them there because they "outdamage" scouts? (something that has been counter proven with logs). Regardless, there really isn't a "perfect" group in EQ2. You can choose to limit yourself to the one set of tactics you wish to employ and hence that may limit what you wish to group with. I just find it amusing that you would then play a class that doesn't fit with the tactics you wish to employ.
Message Edited by Syrano on 01-21-2005 10:16 PM

Well thats the difference between me and you, I prefer a fighter to tank and take less damage for more efficient XP over time and to kill things faster for better loot and basically be more efficient over time.

No wonder yer still lvl 38...YOU ARE TANKING!

Thats IF you have aggro and every hit u recieve u do 100 back (THIS IS WITH ADEPT 1)

I last roughly 5 seconds with 3000 AC on mobs I actually fight at lvl 50......its cause our mitigration sucks. Only time I will ever tank is if I accidently take aggro...then I will shadow slip (lie low upgrade) and lose aggro. It is not efficient for me to tank and therefore not efficient for me to have a skill that acts as a damage shield.

Your reasoning is flawed as you still believe that you are a tank. Scouts are scouts for a reason, they are have a purpose:

Fighters: take damage
Priests: heal damage
Scouts: do physical damage
Mages: do magical damage


We have our functions...thats the 4 class system. All classes under that perform their specific function on par with one another (with few variations....monks do more dps for less tankage ability...but still are EXCELLENT tanks at 45+)

My function is not to take damage but to do damage.....I don't do damage if I'm not being hit with my lvl 50 special.

I get 2 shotted in raids with lvl 51-54 mobs....so 200 damage then I die....wow....man thats so cool. Assassins get a big hit that has a long recast time...since raids last a while they could prob get 2 shots off during hte whole raid. Thats a lot of damage!!!

Kinda sad too, this is our SPECIAL and berserkers just get a normal skill that does the same thing at lvl 50....so they beat us again at something =)

The thing is....as a swashbuckler I am expected to put out damage without taking it. You are some warped swashbuckler who doesn't realize that you miss less from behind and do more damage from behind...YOU WERE MEANT TO STARE AT THAT MOBS [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]!!! WHY DO WE GET BACK ATTACKS AND FLANK ATTACKS IF WE WERE EXPECTED TO TANK?!

That is whats so illogical about your reasoning of having an awesome damage shield.....

1) You die too fast for it to be efficient
2) You weren't meant to tank
4) You can do more damage then 100 dmg per hit you take from behind


So how is the skill useful? Well if you want to tank at lvl 50 for no reason at all to kill normal mobs....be my guest. Its more of a fluff skill while yer soloing greens cause you have nothing better to do at lvl 50 to cast it get bout 200-300 damage off on the mob before the 20 secs wears off (wow 300 damage...i hit up to 600 with flurry of arms adept 3....and it costs the same amt of power...oh yeh not to mention i do up to 380 with flamboyant strike adept 1 and that TAKES NO MANA AT ALL! YES NO MANA FOR A 380 DAMAGE ATTACK)

However inspired daring takes over 100 mana.....for worthless damage for a worthless duration for a worthless skill.

I'd like to see you in a 24 person raid on a lvl 52 mob

"can i tank I have a 100 dmg damage shield that lasts 20 secs, its my lvl 50 special and it will do 1337 damage if I am the tank"

/kick Syrano

Goodbye

My tactics I wish to employ is medium damage, medium utility as the rogue class specifies...no high damage hits but consistent medium damage hits.

Bards = high utility, low damage
Rogues = medium utility, medium damage
Predators = low utility, high damage

I don't see any other function that your so called tactic could benefit except slow xp since a scout takes more damage then a tank.....granted at lvl 50 u don't recieve xp then there is no reason for you to tank unless your doing some form of a quest....and usually lvl 50 quests involve lvl 50+ mobs. I'd like to see you tank the heart of fear access quest....3 lvl 49 ++ mobs that can take down a lvl 50 guardian in a heartbeat without a good healer and a good mezzer.

No tactic ever used could make inspired daring useful, i'd rather just take a damage technique or a long mezz or something i'd use in ANY tactic and would be useful in ANY situation. AKA troubadors get a 40 sec conc
mezz. They will use that a lot. Wizards get ice comet...they will def use that a lot.

My point is, may be for your "tactics" inspired daring works...but lvl 50 specials are supposed to be like a gift for hitting lvl 50...something any playstyle would enjoy. I don't think Inspired Daring forfills the function of a swashbuckler nor the overall function of a scout. I believe it is a fighter ability for doing extra damage while tanking.

Talk to some other lvl 50 swashbucklers about it, they will all tell you

USELESS