Nice to see that the devs still can't give a decent response to anything we've asked. The way SoE treats customers is a big part of why I've quit this game. As far as AoC is concerned, I'm not playing it either. I think I'm done with MMO's for a while and the fact that SoE is giving away free crap to the people that have quit and been gone for a long time seems like a slap in the face to the current player base IMO.
Kage848 wrote: I expected some flak from that. True, in RoK as a whole there aren't enough. Nonexistent in solo content, only one heroic instance has them (hopefully the new Runnyeye has more!) They seem confined to heroic dungeons. Chardok has a nice percentage of them, Seb has a few and also has plenty of places where you wind up engaging more than one encounter at a time, KC seemed to have a decent mix but I'm not 100% certain since I avoid it like the plague with all my toons as I find it utterly worthless. In the T1/T2 raids though, which is what I was talking about, a full TWO THIRDS of the named encounters are multiple mob encounters which is far more than EoF. Then add SoH, where they may not be linked encounters but pulling two trash mobs at a time is the norm. Three or four if you are as hip as Lyger, which I am decidedly not. (I actually did three last time and no one got hurt . . . but I think my healers might have mutinied had I tried four). As far as the second thing goes, I think Lyger put it better when he said "guards tank tougher mobs much easier, zerks tank easier mobs better than guardians do." On the content I'm talking about, and without either of us (obviously) having Mythical epics, I'm no harder to keep alive than the Guardian. My avoidance is pretty close to his when we both have VG equipped. He gets an edge there only when he dons the Green Dragon shield, which isn't very often. And in doing so he loses the DPS. (For now ) My HPs are fewer. True enough. But then again, I can use Unyielding Will to pop up at 40% if I happen to pass without fear of dying shortly thereafter thanks, uhhhhh, thanks to AA choices yeah. That's it. AA choices. I wouldn't count Vision of Madness as an advantage because popping back up at 8% doesn't generally help much, but there's that too. I also use a +Health potion when I tank just to be conservative. He uses a +Crit most of the time. If you're referring to Unyielding Vigilance as the Parry buff, our Guardian isn't using that when he's MT because someone else has their avoidance buff on him instead. For all my ******** about Adrenaline and it's ******** dysfunctionality/wording, when I'm tanking I've grown accustomed to using it as frequently as I can when raid tanking just to be on the safe side. You can't say enough about 50% damage reduction. Even if it is for RANDBETWEEN(10,32) because certain designers are sillyheads, it still helps. I very rarely experience the power issues people complain about with it. When I do it's usually some mob like Iztapa that did it to me, not just Adrenaline itself. If said power issues are not resolved by my own tinkered items or essence/hearts they are resolved (usually before I finish asking) courtesy of others in the raid. It's no big deal. So yeah. No more difficult to keep alive in all of T1/T2 (save VS) and the named in SoH we can take. I can definitely see where there would be problems later though. CoD last night, but I wasn't tanking. TBH I don't see why we'd be harder to keep up there either.
Kurgan@Everfrost wrote: Yea fair enough on your post. The main zones i do are CoA, VoES and Maidens...and they are almost all single target. I have also done all T1 raids and they are also mostly single. About the guardians avoidance buff. The guardina buff at t8 i dont know its name but the one mine has at t7 is Call of Armerment...+20 defence to the raid....thats how they get more avoidance then us.
Tomanator wrote: Devs, here is a well thought out post you asked for yet I see no response. I think the Zerkers are due a real response in regards to thier useless raiding toon they have put so much time into. You feel me?
Pnaxx wrote: What do you want the developers to say in response to that? It's one person's experience in raiding in RoK. I don't share that experience and I'm sure others don't either. 1. If our MT dies mid-fight, the ST/OT picks it up. Whether that MT is me or the Guardian, neither of us have problems getting back. 2. First thing I would do as OT if the MT went down is pop Adrenaline and go into Defensive Stance if I'm not already there. These things take no time to do. Then I'd get aggro if I didn't already have it. I have no transfers on when I'm OT/ST otherwise I'll take aggro unintentionally. Nonetheless, when the MT goes down I don't have problems acquiring the mob without people dying. 3. This has never been a problem for me. I would ask if Tom is buckler specced and has good buffs from other players. As long as I have a Dirge, it is on. 4. We bring regen! J/K. I agree with this, there's not much raid utility. Although whenever I bother asking to see, there are always melee types in my group that aren't maxed and DO get some benefit out of the DPS/Haste. If you are suggesting that a SK in the raid is more desirable than us, I'll just point you to their forums. 5. Boy howdy do I agree with half of this. Adrenaline (as I may have mentioned before) is retardedly broken with respect to it's randomness not matching it's description. The power's not a problem for me. If the ability were fixed so that it lasted it's full 32 second duration the power consumption seems appropriate for the sheer power of the ability. Just need to take steps to prepare for that power loss. If you mean the State of the Berserk class thread linked at the bottom of Tomanator's post, that is much more detailed and precise. But I disagree with a lot of that too. Move UW to the Detrimental Effects Window? Why waste the time? Use ACT, put it on a timer, when there are under 10 seconds left hit the clicky zerk. Fixed. Penalties on Juggernaut and Adrenaline are fine. Anyway, my point is not so much to argue these specific points, but that they are OPINIONS. I would simply like to see developers/designers respond to things that are CLEARLY broken - not functioning as described or not functioning at all. And (/gasp) FIX THEM!
Kurgan@Everfrost wrote: The best thing about this is, for Adrenaline to work you have to be Beserk. To be Beserk you have to hit the mob or be hit. And in def stance you are hit less often and hit yourself less often and so go Berserk less often. A+ for the genius idea behind Adrenaline to the responsible designer.
the point blank truth is it's not worth it for sony to cater to the dozen or so(if there really is even that many) endgame raiding zerks who are left in the offchance that they may lose more non hardcore raiders due to dissatisfaction from other classes. we would be currently behind SKs in the necessity for change and i honestly think from watching the devs that they don't plan on changing anything with us anytime soon. guards put up close DPS numbers, they have better aggro control even on AE linked fights seemingly, they have better defensive tools to survive. if a zerk is right with a guard in survivability then the guards gear either sucks or the player sucks, it's just that simple. the only zerks left are the hardnosed ones who don't just give up because of fairweather on the other side but for those who are sitting in wait for changes, you should most certainly look at your options to keep yourselves happy because you shouldn't be expecting to see anything in regards to bumping us up to compensate for the slight lack of survivability to those random times when we have a nice series of procs that put us up there on the parse. adrenaline certainly is a decent ability, it's just that, if every one of my chanters is sleeping while keeping an eye on me i run out of power fairly easily on more difficult encounters. i usually have more important things to do than watch my power, it seems alot of time they have the same ideas, but for the most part they are good about it BUT if i do happen to run low and just used my last shard/heart and waiting for new ones then that's not good. it's a crutch, some raids deal with it better than others and at certain times, i just never was too impressed with it or anything we were given in this expansion. right now i'm going as far as looking at chain/leather upgrades to further my character, which is nothing new to zerks and even some guards.
OK, let me axe you guys a question. This still just drives me batty, but maybe I’m out of line. Am I totally off base with my Adrenaline issues? In your opinion, does Adrenaline function like the spell description reads? I’m not going to post the description of both abilities in question. You know what they are and you know how they work. Clearly both spells should function EXACTLY the same with respect to Berserk. To this there can be no argument. Whatever the “correct†interpretation of “can only be used while berserk†is, BOTH should adhere to the same one and do not. So one is broken. Either one has been broken for 7 months, or the other one has been broken for almost 28 months. With such a simple issue, either answer is unacceptable, IMO because it’s much too long a duration for a bug so simple to exist especially when people are SHOUTING incessantly that it’s broken. So one should have been fixed months ago. Period. In my opinion, the simple fact that both abilities say they can only be USED while berserk tells the whole story. Juggernaut has always required that you be berserk to USE it, and has always remained active its full duration regardless of the status of your berserk. That’s how the spell description reads, IMO. Adrenaline, on the other hand, has always been broken for the same reason. Yes, you DO have to be berserk to USE it. That’s great. But if your berserk drops it pretends to remain up for the full duration by remaining in the spell effects window, but stops giving you the benefits. I don’t know how else to frame it. I thought you’d have to be insane to think that Adrenaline is working as intended based on its description. But then Lyger came in and suggested that from his perspective if anything it seemed Juggernaut was the broken one. IMO, Juggernaut behaves like the description, Adrenaline doesn’t. But Lyger is a pretty reasonable person. Customer Service has no idea how it’s supposed to function and no one in the know will tell them any more than they will tell us. So what seems right to you? The way I would ask the question is this. Based on the spell descriptions, which ability is functioning correctly: A) Juggernaut B) Adrenaline C) The description is too vague to tell. Only Aeralik knows and if he ever responds he’ll probably just come give a one line answer that just says “Working as intended†and won’t explain the logic behind two abilities with the same description meaning two completely different things because there simply isn’t any.
Kurgan@Everfrost wrote: IMO, i think we all would like to think juggernaut is working as intended and adrenaline is the off ability. adrenaline would be nice if it was up for the whole duration but the devs seem to think that would be overpowering but we have enough pros and cons to deal with in this class, we didn't need another one to try and fill our role. why i say that is, alot of zerks tend to use juggernaut and adrenaline at the same time due to clicky zerk, when adrenaline drops you open yourself up to the mob cutting your face off and immitating you as he picks through the rest of your raid. i tend to either click off juggernaut after 15 seconds or just not use them at the same time while tanking a mob i think would take me out if using juggernaut while not using the rest of my temporary abilities to counter it. our mythical relies on a proc to do that additional 8% more DPS(only if you're not already capped in DA/crit), our zerk relies on a proc to give us that little more haste/dps(and our T8 upgrades were a joke might i add), MC rings rely on procs for str/haste/dps buffs, there is tons of examples of how our class is unsteady. however, even at static with no procs we still do a decent job at DPS but that still doesn't mean i think our class is fine since guards can still do almost exactly what we can in the same gear while we have a bunch of buttons with negatives attached(yes, guards have alot of the same but less negatives overall).
Well honestly Kurgan I would say that Juggernaut is the broken one, but I pray that it's really Adrenaline that's effed.
Lyger@Mistmoore wrote: Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote: Well shoot, man. I really didn't expect any replies to that effect. Honestly my theory is that both are working as the designers intended for them to function and that the problem is simply that the descriptions are identical while the functionality is not. I never would have complained once about the ability if the description of Adrenaline matched the functionality. And the mismatch was pointed out no later than January, and probably sooner. If I'm correct, I think that actually makes it worse. Because how hard is THAT to fix?!?!? Kage848 wrote: But . . . if that Guardian is in your raid, you have that buff on you as well and thus the same avoidance.
To respond to Kurgan: What do you want the developers to say in response to that? It's one person's experience in raiding in RoK. I don't share that experience and I'm sure others don't either. 1. If our MT dies mid-fight, the ST/OT picks it up. Whether that MT is me or the Guardian, neither of us have problems getting back. 2. First thing I would do as OT if the MT went down is pop Adrenaline and go into Defensive Stance if I'm not already there. These things take no time to do. Then I'd get aggro if I didn't already have it. I have no transfers on when I'm OT/ST otherwise I'll take aggro unintentionally. Nonetheless, when the MT goes down I don't have problems acquiring the mob without people dying. 3. This has never been a problem for me. I would ask if Tom is buckler specced and has good buffs from other players. As long as I have a Dirge, it is on. 4. We bring regen! J/K. I agree with this, there's not much raid utility. Although whenever I bother asking to see, there are always melee types in my group that aren't maxed and DO get some benefit out of the DPS/Haste. If you are suggesting that a SK in the raid is more desirable than us, I'll just point you to their forums. 5. Boy howdy do I agree with half of this. Adrenaline (as I may have mentioned before) is retardedly broken with respect to it's randomness not matching it's description. The power's not a problem for me. If the ability were fixed so that it lasted it's full 32 second duration the power consumption seems appropriate for the sheer power of the ability. Just need to take steps to prepare for that power loss. If you mean the State of the Berserk class thread linked at the bottom of Tomanator's post, that is much more detailed and precise. But I disagree with a lot of that too. Move UW to the Detrimental Effects Window? Why waste the time? Use ACT, put it on a timer, when there are under 10 seconds left hit the clicky zerk. Fixed. Penalties on Juggernaut and Adrenaline are fine. Anyway, my point is not so much to argue these specific points, but that they are OPINIONS. I would simply like to see developers/designers respond to things that are CLEARLY broken - not functioning as described or not functioning at all. And (/gasp) FIX THEM! MY RESPONSE Kurgan I disagree with some of your views, but I respect them. I am sure you are probably a more experienced zerker then me in some aspects, or at least better geared. I do analyze parses and have set my CA rotation and CA delay at its highest output, and I parse high on the list even in Def Stance, and in the top 3 in off stance. I dont think our DPS is an issue, even though Guards are coming awefuly close. The fact being that the MT is in a perfect group helps his cause a lot. A majority of the raiding zerkers are still atempting to hurdle past T1 or T2 RoK raids, without Mythical or fabled gear. Most of my gear is instance fabled or T1 RoK fabled. I have my epic, but that is chump change in terms of a DPS weapon. Most raids are lucky to have the adequote amount of dirges, chanters, or high hate transfer classes to fill the MA group up with. Usually my guild MT group has a dirge, swasy, coercer, temp, defiler, and a guard. I usually get a illusionist in mine if lucky, or I get put in the DPS group to fluff them with haste. Raid wide we parse a little over 35K on mobs and named if no joust. Well that being said: The list I first started was the probability of things going wrong for us compared to other classes. We have to work a lot harder to do it as good or better then our fellow fighters in regards to tanking. Therefore I can tank fairly well, but adjusting to changes in fights can cause to the raid getting wiped. 1) THIS being the biggest ISSUE - we need a snap agro tool. This to me is one of the biggest reasons so many zerkers betrayed over to guards. I have no problem holding agro even without Rescue 99% of the time, my issue is with the fact that if I do die, get rezed, and enter midfight again, if rescue is down, I will not be able to snap agro again until a couple of classes die. The probablility of chaos setting in, healers switching targets and missing a heal on me, and the chance of the raid wiping are increased when I do this. I would say half of the time, if the mob goes after one of my healers, its a wipe. We are not yet cordinated enough to recover from this most of the time. 2) I do the same thing you do, hit adrenaline, and switch to def stance, hit wall of madness and hope that I am fast enough to do it. We have some mitigation CAs that work great, and good players can switch fast I agree with your statement. But that being said it has happened, with bad luck that in the time frame it takes me to switch, at the same time position the mob correctly, and communicate to the raid that I am now tanking that it leads to me dieing. This is somewhat tied in to #1, if I can stay in Def stance, and get snap agro from an additional tool, I have an increased chance to lead the whole raid to success. Due to our DPS creating our agro/hate position, if I stay in Def Stance the whole fight, I am not EFFECTIVELY gaining agro and might not have hate if the MT goes down. 3) Dude I am buckler specced Str 4 4 8, Agi 4 1, Sta 4 4 8 8 1, and Int 4 4 6 8 1 - somewhat like that but I might have some points in the wrong place. I do good damage in Def Stance, but please read the starting paragraphs I dont have a raid wide chime of blades due to a mythical dirge, I am lucky to have a perfect group that will maximize my DPS to be super high on the hate list due to DPS. If I stay in Def Stance a good Wiz, Necro, or Assasin will pull agro if they didnt encorporate their deagros correctly or I have bad luck. 4) We agree on the regen. Now lets see about the haste and dps buff..Your right other DPS classes can use it, and I am stuck sometimes in the DPS group to bump their DPS up. But what I was more refering to was our personal DPS, when we are in a group with a chanter, the haste goes to waste and hits marginal returns at around 90% (I might be wrong, but its not far from it). So what does berserk do for us personally, absolutely almost nada except to start juggernaut and adrenaline. So therefore really its good for soloing, if you dont beleive me, dont cast your beserk buffs, and parse yourself in a raid when you have a chanter and dirge in your group. To respond to the SK poke: Yes SK have their own beef, they need some DPS, but their raid utility is in higher demand then zerkers by some classes. 5) Dude there is a work around to everything, lets see, every time I cast adrenaline in a long fight now and I am down on power, I call it out in vent and tell the chanter to start feeding me power, I have to click a heart, shard, totem, potion, and power root so if I am low on power I can finish off the fight. During this time what happens to your DPS. This is just about how dificult it is to play a zerker. So ya your right we can get through it, but have you tried casting adrenaline it with no chanter in your group for power regen, and the two chanter on the raid are giving some other class mana or power cause they have also asked for it, like a healer. So therefore can we do the job yes, its more dificult, you need good raiders that know their job to support you, you need a perfectly set up group, and some luck. All in all for me the probability for us to wipe the raid is too great compared to other tank classes.
...to THE tank class. which therein lies the problem, one class can do almost anything so the others need to be fixed to compensate and still feel useful and desired. when i'm playing my DPS alts, i sit back and drink a beer and nuke, i could give a [I cannot control my vocabulary] less so long as i'm doing my job. as a tank, i have to worry about being replaced tomorrow by a pally or another guardian.
Tomanator, we agree on more than the regen honestly. Keeping with the same 5 point structure . . . 1) I am 100% in agreement with everyone that says we are in desperate need of a snap aggro ability. That we have NOTHING besides Rescue is honestly almost as bad as the way Adrenaline was miswritten or miscoded. In my experience I don't have problems regaining aggro, but that is in T1/T2 raids, and not dying much (until we get to the Overking ) 2) Honestly when the MT used to go down and the mob would switch to me, there was a while in RoK where I was collapsing like a bunch of broccoli. That this doesn't happen anymore is not so much because of anything I've changed, IMO, but group setups and the people in my group. I had one healer in group then, so a lot fewer buffs and Health. Healers make a big difference. In places where it's likely the MT will die, I also have shaman #2 warding me just in case. 3) Was just asking because in your initial list you said "In Defensive stance I am so far down on the DPS list". We don't have a Dirge with a Mythical either, or anyone else for that matter. It can suck when you don't have good groups. There was a time when we didn't have enough Dirges to get ME one, and those were dark times even in EoF. 5) See #3. You are right, it sucks when you don't have the right group composition, and this affects the OP tank class less. You and Lyger (and probably others) have both called Guards THE tank class in this thread. I totally agree with that too. Even prior to obtaining their Mythicals Guardians have been Easy Mode tanks. Less you have to do as a player in order to hold a mob and live. When it comes to aggro, I'd say we're probably around 5th in that department simply because of the lack of threat position abilities. If my alliance was putting out more DPS, I imagine I'd have problems. I would wager that if I had my mythical and our Guardian did NOT, I bet he could still hold aggro from me if I was putting out as much DPS as I possibly could, but that the opposite is not true. Survivability I'd still put us up high on, probably 2nd. DPS, meh, 4-way tie for 1st. Utility depends, but in general I'd say 5th or 6th. That there is one class that is 1st (or tied for 1st) in each of these categories is really the problem IMO. Well . . . that and Adrenaline. You didn't answer my question on that, Tom. Incidentally, I posted elsewhere to an audience of EQ2 players (none of whom play a Berserker, mind you) a detailed description of the two abilities and their behavior and asked the same question. Only one person even suggested the possibility that Juggernaut was the broken one. The problem is, there are no other abilities (that I'm aware of) that require you to be under the influence of another ability before you can launch them, and that stay up for X amount of time. There are stealth attacks that require you to be stealthed to USE them. That would seem to back me up on the use of the word "use" as "launch" "execute" "fire", etc. and not "maintain the effects of". But those abilities are all over as soon as you cast them. The ONLY precedent for this type of language in an ability with a duration that I could find is Juggernaut, which again, would seem to back me up.
Answer what question, I am sorry did I miss anything? If the question is that Adrenaline if going the full 32 seconds is justified by the power cost? I would have to say personally no. I have been in situations where using it left me totally OOM. I can see a heavy power cost of 1000 atributed to it.
Tomanator wrote: No, not that. I would say it WOULD justify the power cost if it lasted the full duration. But that's an arguable point. I can understand the objection to the power cost, certainly. But that's apparently who we are. We have to work for things like folks have said earlier. We don't get aggro handed to us by others like Pallies or get to move threat positions whenever we feel like it even like some other Warriors who shall remain nameless. I'm used to it. Keeps me awake when I tank. No, my question was: Both Adrenaline and Juggernaut have precisely the same description - i.e. "must be berserk to use". But... Your Berserk ability has to be up for you to USE Juggernaut, it then stays up for its full duration even if Berserk drops. Your Berserk ability has to be up for you to USE Adrenaline, it then stops providing you the benefits when Berserk drops although the ability itself remains active. Looking at the descriptions and what they actually do, which would you say is broken? Not to lead your answer one way or the other, but I think it's patently obvious which one is broken. It started as a minor issue, but being so blatant and simple a fix, I am just baffled by the lack of response. So I'm hoping some players can explain to me how that same description can have utterly different meanings. I've heard people opine that it's working as intended, and I've heard people suggest that Juggernaut is the broken ability of the two, but I've yet to hear anyone offer one piece of logic that backs either of those theories. Probably because there isn't any.
