Crono wrote: I am not saying I agree with the change at all. I wholeheartedly disagreed with the change in the guardian forums and in the feedback thread. I am stating it did not affect my paladin's ability to tank though. For PVP we ahve some great tools on our pallies. Amends is great on your healer - works just like moderate. you can also quickly switch it to anyone in your grp getting spiked. Holy ground is up like every 45 seconds - thats alot of aoe aggro especially when cast with our multitude of blue aoe abilities. Our grp taunt recast is quick, has a debuff, and just take a look at the AGI endline for SF. I believe I have pretty solid AOE aggro control on my pally in pvp. Of course the zone wide force target like SKs get is slightly more desirable......
Odys@Storms wrote: Crit bouns was change to base heal amount, and heal crit was taken away when they change melee crit, spell crit & heal crit etc too just Crit.
I think its best to wait to see what plans the devs have for us before we all jump on the OMG THIS SUCKS" bandwagon. Afteralll the odds of us changing a devs mind is 1 in 10,000 - the best we can do is dicuss our healing spells, and possible options for a change.
Boli32 wrote: I agree Boli. Do not think we can affect thier opinions on the crit change, but we can affect the overall out come.
Samoux@Crushbone wrote: Yep, the change is done. My tanking abilities are the same, but now there is no point in casting any heals. I used to cover the party so the healer could focus more on me. I guess now I just focus on DPS for now. Hopefully they will make our heals useful again at some point. Until then, I have some AA's I need to figure out what to do with...
Well... according to the redname earlier on they are "looking into it"... as they pretty much admitted.. in a roundabout way.. they fked up and realised pallys got screwed :/. But its done.. can't chance their mind.. just offer suggestions on what tweaks could be with the new and "improved" none heal crit system. Maybe they'll read them... just have to live with it; no other tanks lost 5 abilities due to the chance to "useless". Expect changes in new expansion I reckon would be a lot sooner if a dev played a pally tho hard to explain *what's* wrong from a pure numbers point of view.. its only when you play them do you realise the deficiencies. and I have tried to give as much feedback on it as possible on this thread.
Xelgad wrote: That solution is completely not capable of scaling. At all. Damage reduction/avoidance abilities like stoneskin vary by orders of magnitude between trivial instances, hard instances, and raids -- if you measure them by a numeric score like "amount healed," but it always does pretty much the same thing. That would be one example of an ability which works like it's supposed to, at about the same relative effectiveness, against many different power levels of opponent. That's scaling, and that's what Boli is getting at.
This post has moved: /eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=445320&post_id=5399042 We do not call for nerfs to other classes please. Keep the posts constructive.
i've thought about it.. and if you plan on scaling heals to a reasonable level for each re-occuring tier i just don't see how it can be done without almost all of them being percentage based... if crit is never going to affect heals they will simply be underpowered for high end raiders no matter what.. with 40k+ hp, bonus was allowing heals to be somewhat useful if i could ever land one in time without being interrupted the percentage i would give for each heal would be 20-30% for holy aid 20-25% for prayer of healing 30-40% for demonstration of faith 60-70% for sacrament of bayle 90-100% for lay on hands its hard for me to imagine any amount you add to the actual heals being useful to a fully buffed mt paladin.. which is.. the ideal ending point gear and progression wise for the class... i don't know maybe you'll surprise me and come up with something useful but.. without our heals doing that range of healing/un-interruptable (with increased cool downs as you suggest) or adding some other mitigating ability attachment, they won't get the job done :/.
The trick with *all* heals that need to be taken into account is they need to be effective somewhat against raid content; not overpowered solo and does not replace a healer in herioc I have put down a few ideas on our single target heal which will allow them to SCALE from solo to raid as a semi spike ability based around healing. It will not give massive immunity time but allow the paladin to deal with spike damage at a reduced recast but faster cast speed. Idea 1: Perhaps if they scaled to the incoming damage instead of relative to our health? Holy Aid Recast: 90s Duration: 10s Casting: Instant Instantly heal Paladin xxxx amount (at *least* 10k) Whilst active Paladin will heal 20% of incoming damage. - bringing myth spell to 30% This will mean it'll scale to the incoming attack so *if* we are no longer warded (high chance if we just took a massive damage spike needing a heal) it will reduce the subsequent incoming damage spikes. Idea 2: As mentioned before a single trigger Stoneskin; dealing with solo and herioc content without a healer a single stoneskin matters little especially only 1 every 90s. In raids tho it will be a anti spike ability. Holy Aid Recast 90s, Duration: 10s Casting Instant Instantly heal Paladin xxxx amount (at *least* 10k+) Paladin will block next attack Idea 3: A more healer centric "semi buff"; sort of a little heal to get things going, The paladin "aiding" the priest. Note the second part will not be able to used in no healer/solo content Holy Aid Recast 90s, Duration: 10s Casting Instant Paladin heals xxxx (5k or so ?) The next PRIEST heal/reactive/ward which lands in excess of the Paladin heal will be increased by 200% Idea: 4 Similar to the above but more defined Holy Aid Recast 90s, Duration: 10s Casting Instant Target Priest only Increases heal potency of priest by 50% Idea: 5 This will scale against all content but will not scale through the levels, perhaps with a SMALL Regen (like 5-8 intilaly and 100-150 at level 90 (200 with potency) so the spell will be able to be upgraded (since we already have the spell line anyways ) Holy Aid Recast 90s, Duration: 10s Casting Instant Increases heal potency of priest by 50% The next attack over 10% of the Paladin health will heal for the damage the paladin would have taken. ---- Whilst we actually get our GROUP heal before our ward and single target heal I think this spell shoudl move more from the group heal to the group protect perhaps with a healing componant to it perhaps not. Lay on hands pretty much needs to be a 100% and LONG recast heal with ZERO power. Compare it to the SK alternative where it is not only a powerful heal (comparable to a the now nerfed Paladin's LoH ability) but also deals significant damage for NO POWER. Sacrament needs to be altered into a powerful heal (but not as powerful as Lay on hands) perhaps with a small buff portion to it. the cast speed NEEDS to be altered, if you can get the parse data from all the servers have a closer look at the interupt rate of this ability WHILST IN COMBAT. Demonstration of faith I forsee as longer duration buff, ideally a ward perhaps not as powerful as live but one we do not have to continually cast but gives beenfits suitable to raiders as well as group content (increase heals on paladin whilst up?) And so we come to Arch Heal. If this was 16% heal potency to the paladin this will be ideal it will also open the tree to more thought from specing AA in it... why that number?.. well that is from the CRUSADER tree and its an ability SKs neither want or need - alter the Legionares focus AA to something BOTH crusaders would consider No doubt such a discussion would come later if you changed it. Anyways just giving ideas getting those dev creatives jiuces flowing.. no doubt this post will be flamed to some degree but paladins have always wanted BALANCE and ability to use our defensive abilities (heals) against all tiers of content without them being too overpowering solo and group is very much at the forefront of our thinking.
Boli32 wrote: Better yet - they could show good faith to the tanking community and roll back the change as nowhere on any of the feedbacks was the change requested by a vocal majority of tanks as anything needing to be fixed. They should let it ride out the rest of the x-pac knowing pally heals are a bit strong and focus on the real class changes they need to be working on. Then after buffing up the respective tanks that need tweaking they can enter the next Xpac making mobs alot tougher and scale the encounters up instead of de-scaling tank P and Z and trying to jump start tank G to bring it up to performace lvls of tank class S. Tanks M and B left out of this equation for ease o illustration. Paladins just have to many heal AA choices for them not to be viable speccing options.
I find it hard to believe that people are suggesting we trade out a 5s recast 7k heal (of the past) for a 90s recast ability that will effectively nullify 1-2 attacks at most. Please remember that the game is not all raiding. Please remember that Paladins are not always main tanks. Please remember some people actually rolled Paladins because they wanted to be able to heal others. There is/was nothing wrong with the 3 core heals Paladins had. Yes, our timers were busted and had questionable utility. But the very base of the Paladin healing mechanic was quite good. Trying to change our heals, which are already class defining, into weaker copies of what other tanks already have will only leave Paladins completely flavorless and weaker than the tanks being copied.
Boli32 wrote: Overall, I would agree. But that they "forgot" Paladins in the first place, as they implented their "fix" without even listening or answering to the outraging community, worries me. I still have my account cancelled and until I finally SEE the change Xelgad is proposing, I wont reactivate it. Implementing a global minor nerf to fighters and a serious nerf to Paladins without even reacting and then giving us cookies afterwards to stay on, was the wrong way. First find solutions, THEN start the change. Its like reducing all Guardians stoneskins by 70% and telling them to hold on, until they find and implement a solution.
Jeal@Unrest wrote: Well for the first time after the entire Paladin community has been up in arms a Devleoper responds I am with Jeal on the direction that restoration of our badly nerfed class defining healing capabilities need to take.
It would be entirely reasonable for the heals to have different effects if cast on others, or self. If target is other then work normally for full effect. If target is self, apply a temp buff with some percentage bonus to incoming healing but reduce the heal amount of this spell; This way, the paladins heals would scale to the content (by scaling to the amount of incoming healing) and be effective via improving the effectiveness of the real healers, which fixes the made-up problem of paladins solo-healing challenging instances. The real problem is that some instances are too easy; or that there is too large a gap between casual and raid content and power levels.
Kemt@Venekor wrote: I agree with this, some of these suggestions will nerf pally even more so then it is now. I mean damn. Dont take away the ability to heal for stupid 90 second cool downs. Some people do play to help our groups get green after aoe, to help the priest heal us ect.
As I posted befor there would be only 3 things I would liked changed is all Paladin heals cast will moving, loh 100% heal and devout Sacrament changed to a ward ( wards for a 50% of incoming damage for X amount of time).
So basically, until our heals are "fixed", we have to readjust how we play.... Oh, and then when they are reworked we get to do it all over again. Awesome.
