On my warden I almost never get to see a heal tick for it's full amount. It really just down right pisses me off when I saw tanks with heal parses that made my warden look like a joke. At the same time though, when I was on my paladin, I was thankful for every last point of healing he had. It allowed the healer to focus on getting everyone else up to full and I could assist with my group heal and spot cures and what not. SF pretty much made that moot as abilities in general just outright exploded into huge numbers. I wasn't a fan of how huge everything inflated to in SF, but taking out fighter heal crit all together is just way too much. There is a happy middle ground to letting the healers have their cake and giving the healing fighters something to support with and make a difference but not dominate the charts blind. Tanks having way OP healing in BGs and raid geared tanks spanking respectively trivial heroic content because of scaling bonuses and min/maxing cheapens the game was a problem, but nerfing the entirety of tank healing to this degree is just plain uncalled for and absurd. This change is also damaging balance on a whole for everyone thats not stacked in teh sparklie phat lewtz fighting respectively trivial content. There were overgeared players fighting undergeared players/trivial content that was causing an imbalance, so either make the loot smarter so farming is less lucrative and doesn't punish those in need, or put in scaling so that having top tier raid gear doesn't trivialize the nuts off of the heroic content. "Fixing" a bad decision with another worse decision just hurts the game that much more and makes the list of things to fix that much bigger. It would have been better to leave things as they were until a fix was developed that didn't gush complete and pure fail. Honestly, I love boli's suggestions at the start of the thread. It doesn't lay a steamer on top of your healers by making them basically cure bots, and it does the job it was intended to do; reduce spike while protecting yourself and your parties with healing and support.
Because SKs heals were far too OP. They really should have just taken crit healing away from all fighter classes EXCEPT paladins.
Lethe5683 wrote: That would of went over well huh?. They should of fixed what was causing the issue in the first place not a nerf to fighters across the board.
Fine tuning is not SoE's specialty, they tend to be heavy handed when adjusting something thats overpowered and go too far heh.
Heals as they were in HERIOC and SOLO and most like battleground/pvs where the issue was highlighted were "overpowered" as they trivilised incoming damage HOWEVER removing the heal crit meant our heals no longer scaled with the rest of the gear/dps/incoming damage to raid content. The current heals are simply too small and more "must.spam.constantly" to get any sort of effect from them - the proposed changed is to increase the size of the heals and reduce the recast which will help with the solo/herioc parts but does not do anything to the raid content. The issue is.. and always has been the scaling of the heals - when they crit they helped with spike damage both on ourselves and group in raid but were perhaps too powerful in herioc/solo/battlegrounds/pvp senrios. Honestly altering the heals within the pvp rule set was too complex for SoE so they introduced a blanket nerf to all fighter heals which adjusted SK and zerker heals to a better level 9even tweakign the zerker endline so it heals similat to what it did before by increasing the %) but completly neglect3ed to examine the paladin heals. As such we are now left with extremely ineffieicnt heals (5% power a pop give or take) which heal for little to no damage against harder content. (3.2k heal on a 32k health raid buffed pally is just pathetic; given we have to take the damage first in order to heal it). SoE Devs need to go away and rethink our heals completely; to somethgin which will scale from herioc to solo to raid instead of removing the scaleing part (crits) - The only time I've considered them to be overpowered is in battlegrounds where I'm guessing most of the complaints have come from. We have given a lot of suggestions but no feedback to what we the paladin community think - its more a case of "we don't understand your class so we are just going to make your heals bigger but increase the recast" - I can almost bet a 10min sitdown with the devs explaining how we use our abilities and what we expect from our cllass will help out a lot. - its just a case of trying to get those 10min without being laughed at (fan faire) or ignored (official forums). Like most tank classes gear helps yes.. but you cannot truely understand the class unless you have OTed, MTed higher level raid or even tough herioc content where a single miss-timed ability can wipe a raid/group. Unless you have had the experiance at this it is impossible to fully realise exactly what the class is capable of and their limitations. The mere pressance of TSO raid content shows how little the development team understood about raid tanking giving the constant interupts/stuns/stifles and status effects upon tanks. SKs were highly sought after because they had 3 abilities which coudl nulify those - the rest of us just had to ride the stun+interupt wave The point is the community HAS the knowledge of what is required/needed in the paladin class - USE US!
I have read most of this thread and while I'm sure the boffins have many well meaning suggestions no one has looked at the emotional impact of having a character I no longer want to play. Half my paladin spells are heals. Half my AAs affect or boost these heals or give new heals and none of them are real spells. It doesn't matter what armour I am wearing because 'Critical Chance' and 'Critical Bonus' no longer affect them. They are different to every other spell or CA on my hotbars... They are 'toy heals'. I want to go back and redo all my AAs. I no longer want 'Lay on Hands' to be Grandmastered. I don't want to spend the AAs I did to get the additional heal. The character is broken and no longer fun because his hotbars are filled with things that don't crit and are 'different' to everything else that every other character has. Everything is ordered by rules and rules give us comfort. Spells and CAs crit according to your critical chance. However, this change to crusaders is an arbitrary cheat because it ignores the rules. I will not play my paladin until sense prevails and another means is found to balance the class other than by this lazy use of a dues ex machina. I will not enjoy this character until his spells become spells again defined by the rules regarding spells. Spells crit.
Our heals being nerfed are a direct result of the devs consolidating stats etc and making crits easy to cap due to poor gear itemisation. SF instances are not challanging. Before the crit nerf i was clearing library and research halls in a mix of T8 pvp armor and t1 SF raid armor without a healer, although full group with 2 utility. I haven't tried the instance since the change although my gear has gotten better so would be good fun to see if i still can If the devs wanted to prevent Pallys from running instances without healers then they should look at designing heroic content that forces groups to take healers. I don't mean having mobs constantly casting dots that have to be cured or curses that screw you over but just make them hit hard enough and throw out a few aoe's that mean we can't keep our selves and the group alive through it all. With the abilities and aa build's we have and with crits being capped easily along with good potency and crit bonuses we can't be blamed for playing our class to the best of it's ability and then be told they have been broken for years. It has been long established that certain classes are good at soloing heroic content, especially when they are running easy/lower con instances and are geared in higher end gear. The devs have been given some great idea's in this thread about how they can make our heals scale to content but as always you never see any input from them as they always seem to come across as ignoring their community. All it takes is a thread like what they did in the guardian forum about how they can improve/address issues and provide us feedback on our idea's or how they see the class being developed. I love my Pally, i switched from Zerk over a year ago as main and have never looked back but this change has only mildly stiffled what i could do on him. Raiding has become slightly more frustrating with the spamming of variouse heals when ae's hit or i take spike damage but i can't say i'll rage quit and shelf him. Boli has some great ideas on where our heals could be going and the ability to buff healers etc seem a good solution if healers are feeling left out when healing us but will any red names read and acknowledge them??? Probably not
I don’t play a Paly, but from what I understand no classes should expect any changes or Div recognition until very close to the next xpac comes out since I am sure they are in the Bata for it. Any changes they have gotten from this thread is probably already being implemented to the extent that it will be on the Bata server, and any one that has ***** to it is under a NDA.
Although that would be a nice thought that they are working on it and are testing it. They keep on making changes to mechanics and game play recently that were not needed and have even implemented changes to wariors and guardians specificly that were under discussion not long before they changed the critical healing. In reality if the devs cared they would talk to the community and get feedback on suggestions for future development or even offer out the opportunity to the experienced players to come test out what they have thought up. The trouble is they don't appear to be making any effort on this which is part of what gets our backs up and consequently frustration is vented at them when they do finally make posts on what is happening or ask for feedback/ideas. It's been several weeks since a red name posted that LoH's may become a % based heal but thats the only snipet of info we have been given I'm guessing we'll be having the new expansion in Febuary so that could be in the next 18 weeks. With that new expansion we'll be getting a new aa cap so who know's maybe the devs will be sneaky to us and let us spec new aa's so we get critical healing again? Or they may not do anything to our heals for the next expansion and work it in over the next 12-18months like the guardian changes and wait until another expansion comes out? By then we'll have more threads regarding heal crits for pally's, more angry/upset customers and probably more people leaving game or stop playing characters because of the lack of customer care?
Did SR with a Paladin tank last night. He did the named in the garden by just running to it and attacking. Got all the gargoyles on him right after they killed the healer. Paladin kept agro, did 12K DPS and healed for 2K HPS and we easily won the fight. You people are crazy. My Guardian would have dropped in about 2 seconds after doing maybe 500 HPS from my stoneskins and doing maybe 6K DPS. Keep asking for the world. Maybe you'll get it.
And how was this Pally geared in comparison to your guardian? How much of the 2k heals were his own or procs? It's been long established that Warriors tend to need a healer to keep them alive where as crusaders have had self heals and pally's in perticular direct heals to keep them going. I played a Zerk as a main for 3 years to know what warriors are like Post up some data on this guy rather than just say he's done x amount of damage, y amount of heals and made my guardian look full of fail in the process If the Pally is in full set of end game gear compared to another tank in MC then yeah you can expect a little difference in surviveability as well as dps. Also it's not all about what the tank can do on his own. If he's running in a stacked group that kinda helps a bit too rather than just some pulled together pug.
Wasuna wrote: Trolling gets us no where, but lets assume your trying to be productive. As the post following you said, give the number i.e. parse data to back up this assumption. And include the gear comparison. Keeping agro for a paladin is a combined group effort, from the amends' target producting significant hate. The paladin's hit/hate rate adding hate and the group managing hate properly. The 2K HPS, I just do not believe this for a moment. I have seen my HPS, from the goup ward mostly, as high as 500; but 2k hps I would need parse data to back that statement up. While 2k hps is conceptionaly possible, It seems more likely you are trolling. Hate to use a common "skillz" arguement; however, maybe the paladin was just better geared and knew HIS/HER class better. Class knowledge is on of the biggest factors in tanking ability. I wish player would learn their own class's ins and outs before attacking another class because they have different tools. We are not asking for the world, but it would be nice if our "heal" abilities where worth the hotbar space.
Samoux@Crushbone wrote: Then nerf paladin block chance, and while you're at it, knight's stance. If you want to dps, ditch the shield. If you want to heal, ditch the avoidance.
Rahatmattata wrote: I know you to be a troll; nevertheless, the paladins have already stated they would like for knight's stance to affect 2hders and not 1hders. On your 2nd point: I do dps with a 2hder. Currently we cannot heal w/o avoidance its needed to actually get our heals off while being constantly attacked by mobs. Its best to ignore trolls, but I think its proper to point out the fatal flaws you make in your arguements. Not meaning this to be a personal attack; however, I feel it warrents saying; I do not believe you can read or understand the arguements of another class while you are blinded by your own class envy or hate. You do more harm by constantly attacking other classes. Was not too long ago other classes felt your guardian was, for lack of a better word, "OP." I expect we know how that resulted. At any rate, an arguement contradictory to your own will be ignored, or met with more nerf paladin block or knight's stance responses. Have a nice day -raz
Why would the rest of the fighters ever agree to support KS effecting 2 handers? Why would we support one of the 2 highest DPS fighters to have a setup that would allow them to do even more DPS when they wanted to? The Paladin community really needs to think here and quit being stupid. You heal like a healer and you DPS like a scout all while your keep rock solid agro and take the hits from the mobs. How can any other fighter (excluding SK's) support anything that in any way bosts your abilities?
Lets not confuse the rest of the fighters with a couple of guradians... From last i had seen Zerks were absolute beasts at dps and they hold up pretty well when it comes to damage reduction. Even with the last round of changes to off hand weapons etc has 0 effect on crusaders as we can't use them. In the last few months all the changes that have been applied to the game have nerfed both crusader classes whilst both warrior classes have been given boosts along with these nerfs. They may not be great when it comes to raiding but seeing as the majority of content in game is designed around soloing and heroic content all these off hand changes will boost both warrior and brawler dps. Guardians need to get it into their heads that Paladins are not SK's or Zerkers and we don't dps like scouts, if we're out dpsing our scouts then the scouts are fail or are grossly out geared. We have tools to hold agro, but so do guardians now since the changes plus both warriors have more snap tools than both crusader classes. We have never healed like a healer in a setting that actually makes a healers heals count. Yes we could/can keep our selves and group alive in easy heroic content but thats what heals are for and poor game design brings. What we are asking for is our heals to scale for content, idea's have been posted but no response from a red name to accknowledge them. We want guardians to stop feeling the pressure that they are not the be all and end all of plate tanks and hopefully without nerfing classes the devs can find a balance with all of us that may, once in an mmo, would stop people complaining that the tools they have to do a job is not the same as someone elses and they want access to all of it.
Samoux@Crushbone wrote: Yea, I must be a troll since I don't share your point of view. You're real smart kid.
Its nice to see everyone jumping on the band wagon saying hahahahaha and asking for more nerfs. Point remains we have BROKEN abilities and need them to be re-evaluated to scale from solo to herioc, to raid - as of right now they are equal to a solo only ability which just happens to consume vast quantities of power. Not overpowered... notice I haven't asked for anything overpowering.. just something that SCALES from solo to raid. When equiping a few stonewill items equals if not completly overshadows any sort of healing power pallys can now put out it makes me sad where I will gain more healing NOT casting heals and DPSing than I would if I cast them; if that;s not broken I don;t know what else is. Pallys do NOT want to have to sit there spamming heals constantly to keep alive.. heals shoudl be akin to and act much like your defensive buffs gaining similar benefits... just in healing power. Oh... and I've never got even close to 2k heal/second after the "adjustment" except for one place in cella where you can use the crusader endline to proc massive healing... such a shame that that is pretty much the only place the ability is ever used and no pally ever specs it not even in "tank spec". Its completly useless in a raid setting.
We can argue conjecture on what is, or isn't broken till we're blue in the face with plenty of people to happily agree or more aptly, disagree to any claims made. The fact is though, until we see a change, or it's not changing (or even a new comment that Xelgad is looking at it) in game; we're just "peeing in the wind" at this point. Boli said it best, we don't want to be "Healadins" knocking out 5k hps, we just want our heals to scale correctly. The reason they don't was because of a "quick fix - so everyone will shut up" attempt to correct an itemization issue(s) in which the easiest solution was to just break the mechanic until a more approprate time was available to correct all issues pertaining to the real problem. That fix (break) impacted paladins more an any other, whether intended or unintended. We all know it, but the fact remains nothing is gonna happen until the expansion. Until then, I'd offer you stick to your yard, we'll stick to ours, otherwise we're just pissing each other off for no reason other than boredom. There's plenty of time for the "knock-down drag-outs" when beta hits. As for Pallys asking for KS to switch to 2 handers - I'd be careful what you wish for. SOE's track record on 2 handers (or itemization lately) hasn't been all that stellar.
