I also want to know what lvl of invisibility it casts, and all that aside.... Why is group invis so important? Why are you sparing yourself from debt? Are you out looking for it? I see what you mean, but to call it the best utility spell you have? I mean, I just do not see invis being that great of a spell anyway. It comes in handy what % of the game? To me its trivial either way. But then again, I solo a lot, and when I group, I dont care how people get where they get, as long as they get there. I dont see people having trouble regularly. Sure group invis would be nice, but I prefer my own. and again, what lvl invis is it?
Valizak.. the odds are enormous that Gonz plays a coercer, not an illusionist. It's not the best utility spell "he" has. There's been quite a concentrated effort on the boards for the past month by a group of coercers determined to prove that illlusionists are godlike beings, while coercers are stuck with a completely unplayable subclass. Honesty and accuracy are not particularly characteristic of this effort. That said, group invis is quite useful in spots. It doesn't save debt, it saves travel time in some zones. When you need to get someplace deep into a dungeon, a group invis will let you get there without clearing the trash. Unless, of course, there are see-invis mobs along the route. Several classes have group invis/ stealth spells. For single-target invis, coercers have a slight edge. Their final spell will cap out a bit higher than the illusionist one. It's not a critical difference, by any means. Sorry, I don't have specific numbers to post
It's the first time I post on the Illu boards and I'm really not here to oppose Illu and Coercers. I know they have common problems as enchanters. But my reply was for Valizak who is a Coercer and I couldn't let what he posted without a reply. Valizak, if you are a solo player, then yes I could aggree with you that single invi is good for solo playing. But you can in no way speak for the 99% of coercers who are group players, what you did with your post. So reformulate your post: "For me and only me who is a solo player, ..." then I could aggree with you. I've grouped with illusionists and, from "my own experience" as a group player, I say invi group is great. I think I recognize the facts. I also recognize charm could be very good if it was not bugged and its duration increased. Oghier, let me explain myself. Group invi is a debt saver in these ways: First group invi is the safest and fastest way to recup shard after a wipe. With a shard missing, your group is weaker. So if you have to kill tough mobs to go to your shard, you'll more easily die. I can remember many second wipes due to recup shard. Second when you want to go somewhere and need to dodge mobs because you don't have time or strong enough group to clean the mobs on the way, it's common that someone in the group will aggro a mob, resulting in a single death or in a group wipe in the worst case.
I do enjoy soloing, and my invis helps a lot. But I can count on 1 hand how many times group invis has helped the group I was in. I am lvl 47, and I have completed over 600 quests. So I have put my fair share of playing in. All I am saying is, Group invis vs. Single target w/bonus, shouldn't even have a decision play when choosing a class. I honestly have never even thought about complaining about my class. Charm is broke, but it can be used to your advantage greatly when doing certain quests. And its only broke in a certain way, it can still be used fine in a group in PF for example. I dominate with the double ^ groups. Its just "APPEARS" from the forums, that 90% of the coercers out there, just do not realize how good of a class the coercer can be. I have screenshots of myself out DPSing everyone in my group, including an assassin, and a paladin, as well as a wizard ( pre-patch fix on them ). And this only applies to group encounters of 4 or more..... but that in itself is fine with me. If you have questions, I will get the screenshots for you. If you think Haruspex is a waste of time, and do not have it on a hotbar that you actively use, then you are not utilizing the coercers abilities properly. I am not trying to come off as the best coercer there is, but I am the one it seems that doesnt have a lot to complain about. There are issues with every class, and everyone wants their class to be fixed of course, and it will come in time. I sold my horse to buy Perplexity Master 1. It does NOTHING different than the APPIV I had. But I got over it, eventually I am sure it will do more, in the mean time, I have to look forward to having that master 1 properly fixed. And I do apologize for the bias with solo vs. group. Its really not that. Oh and an update for the prior post, Disregard, adept 1 gives an 8% boost in speed, and grants lvl 44 invis. ( same as Ignore Master 1 ).
Valizak roflmao ... I wonder if you have even lvl 40 coercer .... FYI.... Master 1 Ignore wont hide ya from Lvl 49+ monster ... Appentice 1 Disregard ... will. Something to think about right? You completed 600 quest ... ye right I bet 500 of em was something along line of Initiate Arcanist Lesser training tomes quests (aka kill 5 undead in 5 min ....) or you simply never been in zones like LS or Solusek Eye The only case then you could outdps melee is if you were lvl 37 and below and melee was same lvl or below .... Haruspex good only for mass production of toughtstones and those usefull only for casting AE mez (thanks SOE for fixing this line to the level of usefullness of AE stun) About charm ..... man what are you talking about??? as it stands now its nice FLUFF spell. Every time then I use Beguile I dont know if it gona bug encounter in no-loot mode or not. Heck once I tought I found NICE spot for utilization of Beguile (The Thyr Warlocks tonels right before Nagafen Lair/Thyr oratorium) - everyone who did Efreety bastion access know what a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] camping warlocks shards so to have a little fun I was using flamlords as a pets .... and guess what? Even if those pets not cause "no-loot" mode of encounters they hahahaha grey out ANY targets outside enounter. In 2 words if you charm yellow conned 1 arrow up flamelord of thyr and sick it on different encounter say double arrow up originally conned blue thyr protector .... your target immideatly turns grey (hahahah lvl 49 thyr protector cons grey to lvl 50 coercer ya right...)
First of all, before you speak, do your research. Ignore, Master 1. Grants 8% movement bonus, and lvl 44 invis. Read the spell description, I urge you. Disregard Adept 1, does the exact same. I have nothing more to say to you. This just goes to show how ignorant some people are. You being one of them.
You difference between theoretical ppl and practical ppl? Go test things then talk... Ignore Master 1 have SAME lvl cap as Apperentice 1 Ignore aka 48. Which mean - everything lvl 48 and below wont see you everything above will.... In other words if you take Master 1 Ignore at lvl 50 and Apprentice 1 Disregard then go to Solusek Eye and try sneak down to Nagafen Lair you will notice interesting thing. Apprentice 1 of Disregard WILL protect you from lvl 49 monsters even with lesser degree of invis while Master 1 of Ignore .... wont Difference between App, Adp, Mst for Invisibility comes from different factor... Once you get spell Apprentice 1 will grant you invis +1-2 lvl above you aka at lvl 47 with Apprentice 1 Disregard you wont be noticed by lvl 48 monsters but will with lvl 49 one... Apprentice 2 +2-3 lvl above you , Adept 1 +4-5 lvl (cannt tell for sure about master since I havent fought anything lvl 58+ ) anyway this progression goes up untill you meet cap of spell. For ignore its lvl 48, for previous spell it was either 30 or 32
What is so hard about saying, "yeah you were right, thats what the spell says." Because thats the truth. Whether it works that way or not, who really knows, because I dont have the master 1 of either. You retorted too quickly with your last post ( prior to this one ). And ignorance was your main virtue in that. If you had just taken the time to look at the spells, you would not have made your self out to be just that. Perhaps you are NOT ignorant, but you acted just that, and until I see otherwise, it is how I see you now. I am sure I am not the only one.
Valizak ... my coercer lvl 50 for more then month with healthy mix of Adept 3 and masters for main spells and no less then Adept 1 for rest... As a such I have first hand expirience how spells work ..... you dont. That's the difference between us 2
The other difference, Tan, is that you have demonstrated little allegiance to accuracy in your posts. Most of them boil down to, " Coercers are useless and unplayable, and we need to be fixed. Illusionists are godlike beings, so nerf them." With such a pedigree, it will be a while before people take anything you post without several grains of salt. Reputation matters at least as much as level. That said, I believe your description of invisibility is correct. The advantage of upgrades appears to be an increased effective casting level. In short, you cast as a higher-level mage, reaching the spell's level cap sooner. The cap itself is the same for all versions of a particular spell. Message Edited by Oghier on 04-05-2005 02:06 PM
In other words lvl of invisibility mean next to nothing right? Btw I rarely log my coercer anymore - thanks god guild have enouth illusionists which IS god-like compare to coercer in every single aspect of enchanter class save one - I am better at stoping swarms -which requied once in blue moon - namely Heroic Angler and Meeting of Mind... I am happily playing my warlock twink Meanwhile I still was 3rd in the server race among coercers to hit mark 50, I am not active anymore because coercer subclass no fun to play in its current state and coercer subclass IS gimped no matter what you say or think and if you dont believe me take a close look how many ACTIVE lvl 50 coercers compare to other lvl 50 classes including illusionist then think long and hard why it would be....
The difference between us, is that you think because all you did was XP group ( which inhibited your ability to learn as a coercer ) and get to 50 3rd on server makes you better, and smarter than me as a coercer. I am going to have to disagree. I have put much more time into the coercer than you have, with more than 610 quests completed, soloing, small groups, and bigger XP groups all evenly time distributed. That being the main reason I am lvl 47 and not 50. At one point I was 10th on server lvling. And XP groups just didnt interest me as much, so I did small groups, soloing, questing. Now I am proudly somewhere around 20th. So you being 3rd, and lvl 50 with adept 3s and all that, does not mean a thing to me because of your demeanor. Everyone that plays EQ2 can read, and they can right click a spell, and read it, and clearly see my point 100% accurate and correct. And now after admitting you rarely play your coercer, what gives anyone the thought not to doubt what you say. All I can say, is GL with your new twink character. I hope all works well for you. Valizak Ultramind, 65 coercer ( enchanter ), Tunare, Retired before Deployment to Iraq. Valizak, 47 coercer, Mistmoore.
Valizak the real difference is that Tan is a powergamer, and you'r not.. Nothing to do with the playing times, basically Tan wants to play with the best, and the best players generally sticks to gether, and gravitates towards the more powerfull classes. (Read, not coercer at this time) There will allways be people like you too, that basically dont care if they play the best classes or even if they are good at it. (eq1 had paladins and nerfknights too before kunark, even if they were sub-par and stole their groups xp) Sure, Tan doesnt have the right numbers every time, but the fact remains, that his high end character is significantly inferior to an illusionist. What bothers Tan (and me when i still played coercer) is that a player that also plays an enchanter, with less skill and worse gear than him, will be significantly better to have in a group/raid, if they had started in freeport, and become illusionists. No amount of skill or equipment can make up for weaker, and fewer coercer spells, as long as the player playing the illusionist actually knows what he's doing, and is sitting at the keyboard. As compared, rather carefully, elsewhere, at allmost all levels, illusionists are better at stuns, or power drain(allways), or mez, or damage (ae and single target), or buffing(allways), or utility and usually in all of the areas at the same time. Powergamers generally dont care about doing some fed-ex quest, since.. the reward is totally pointless in the long run, and a waste of time, players like you does care, even if there is no reward. Sure, you can argue that having 10% faster travelling speed with invis can matter, but, taking 10 minutes longer to somewhere, can never, ever, compare with never getting other places at all. (Group invis can get your group to places where single target invis simply wont. Run speed can be made up for by inviting a scout, or buying a horse) Right now, with the current state of the game, basically, if you picked coercer instead of illusionist, you'r out of luck. Too bad. But for xp groups, any enchanter is nice (mana regen, thanks) and since there's not enough illusioists, it's still easy to get groups as a coercer. It's like the fat guy sitting on the bench when the kids play soccer, if you have a free spot, and no good players are looking, you'll pick him. He's not as good, but he's better than none. PS: If i had to choose a guy to play with, and one of them said he was basically a power gamer who didnt play as mutch as he'd like, and the other one had done a bazillion quests and played 10hours a day, i would pick the power gamer for my group 10 times out of 10. I would know i could depend on him doing the right thing in a pinch and know his class. The power gamers can generally do things the more relaxed players wouldn't dream of. (See the term uber-guild, before it got watered down to armies of zombies) PPS: The term zombies are what many now a days see as power gamers, basically people with massive amounts of time on their hands, that does not seem to get bored, even after killing the same easy mob the 800th time, in the same way. Theese are not the old-fashioned powergamers. The best place to find the powergamers are on the new frontiers, or fighting mobs they allmost cant beat. This is also where i find my fun, doing too hard hard stuff. Most min/maxers falls into the powergamer category too, since frankly, they want to show off. Edited for clarity: Message Edited by Orki who Posts on 04-07-2005 05:02 PM
Orki, I'm sorry to finally bring this to a head, yet i feel that Illusionist's have no whatsoever imbalancing abilities that Coercer's are w/ out.....and i'll be pleased to debate this w/ you. Please bring up a topic besides DPS (as Illusionist and Coercer DPS will be changed w/ in most likely less than 3 weeks) where illusionists have a clear advantage over coercers. Use spell descriptions and actual parses if you want....it's fine by me. Personally i don't think Coercer's are as out in the cold as some would like to think....but rather we'd find we're in the same boat, the boat that hopefully is remedied in Live Update #7. Oh and BTW...you're allowed to use comparisons between other good/evil subclasses to support your argument. Also, we should feel on somewhat equal footing as we both have not played our subclass in the last little while (i'm hitting near 2 months - hit 45 and hit the RL work wall) I will not include any other Coercer's posts as part of your debate for Coercer's....unless you quote the said Coercer in a different post. Is this meant as a flamewar? No....of course not, enchanter's are better than that. Tanatus has his moments but he also has some great posts - deploying w/ out fear the, i suppose, exact details of coercer spells and giving what appears to be honest advice to others. In closing; Before the coercer (Mayo) power regen nerf all Illusionist's wanted to be coercer's, After the Coercer regen nerf and the Illusionist fix of our level 40 2nd line mezz, some Coercer's are exclaiming they wish they were Illusionist's. I'm stating we peform the same role in a standard group, and each subclass has it's slight advantage to the other's disadvantage and visa-versa. The real issue w/ both our subclasses is that CC is not neccessary in EQ2 and we wish it was. With out this feeling of CC power throughout the game we question everything else about our subclass, leaving most of us desiring an increased need of CC throughout EQ2 game content....but as we see this not happening we'll settle w/ the "Mage Archetype Role" of DPS. Please enlighten me as to how much more powerful illusionist's are in comparison to Coercers. Edit: I'm in Vegas all the upcoming weekend for my buddeis bachelor party if for some reason there is a lack of response during this time. If any EQ2 players are in vegas for April 8'th - 10'th either PM me or post here and i'd love to meet up w/ some of you. Message Edited by Dainger on 04-07-2005 04:55 AM
Orki, I'd like to move any further discussion we have to the enchanter forum....as it rightfully belongs there - inbetween the two subclasses.
That's quickly summed up.. since i've done it before.. and things havent changed much. What does the two classes have The blue ones are where illusionists have the advantage, the orange ones is where the coercer does. 1 Stifles 2 Stuns 3 Mana regeneration 4 Mezzes 5 Mana drain 6 DPS added to the group you'r in 7 DPS alone on solo mobs 8 DPS alone on group mobs 9 Other neat utilities Since i stopped playing my coercer at the sub 45 game i will comment on that mainly. Sub 45: 1: Speechless is so superior to the coercers silence spells there is just no comparison. - With speechless, you cast the spell 3 times on the mob, with a quick recast, - then it's stifled from the start, and you can relax, knowing that it will never have mana again. - Coercers has to keep an eye on the buff icon most of the fight, and usually all of the fight. - When, not if, it breaks early, the mob will do a special attack, since they are ready, this will typically be a barrage after lvl 26. 2: Both classes are roughly equal on stuns, untill illusionists gets an area stun at 30. - The illusionist short duration stuns does not have the 4 seconds casting time coercers have post 30, making the short duration stuns usefull for illusionists, and totally, pointless for coercers. (4 secs casting time for a 5 seconds stun?) 3: With consuming thoughts at 32 coercers have the advantage in mana regeneration, untill illusionists catches up at lvl 48 with a better spell which is beyond the scope of this comparison - The basic mana regeneration from the breeze line is equal, untill coercers gets a group version, that is inferior after the recent spell duration changes. - The advantage goes to the coercer for the level range 32-48, but is somewhat offset by illusionist buffs buffing int/wis and thereby mana pools. - Note that post nerf, this advantage is VERY VERY SMALL. It used to be significant. 4: Illusionists have uninterruptible mezzes, this is better than interruptible mezzes. - I can count the situations where my coercer was saved by being able to mez while stunned or stifled on 0 fingers, - since either the tank has aggro, or i am casting a stun. If i am getting hit, i need to get it off instantly, or i die. - I cannot cast the spell while i'm getting hit by a mobs melee attacks, and a stun is more reliable than a mez, - especially if the tanks are trying to get the mob off. - After 40 illusionists has 2 mez spells, this is better than having 1 mez spell, especially if that one gets resisted and you have to wait for a refresh. - All enchanters knows how nice this is, since they have 2 mez spells in the mid 20's. - The area mez spell for coercers is said to be better, but i have frankly not been in a group where area mez was needed since i shelved my enchanter. If you need area mez to save your bum, just have the scout evac instead. - Easier, faster, safer. Especially since area mez cannot be chain-cast... and.. coercers cannot keep as many mobs on mez after the area mez expires since they only have one single target mez. 5: See 1, coercers cannot drain a mob anywhere NEAR that fast, generally an illusionist can drain a named faster than a coercer can do a single or no arrow mob. 6: Illusionists buffs int and has superior haste, this affects the group dps somewhat, but it not a tremendous amount. - After lvl 30, nightmare does a tremendous amount of damage to a mob in a melee heavy hasted group, due to it's procs - I was unable to match that as a coercer on single target double arrow mobs. (parses showed 60-63 dps vs 72-74 dps, so not that big a difference) 7: Coercers are hands down better at soloing blue and green solo mobs, their nuke hits harder. 8: Coercers cannot kill hard green group mobs, and often even moderately high greys if there's many of them, i had to wait till i had 13 levels on the big orc groups - running around in commonlands before i could solo them. - Illusionists can solo those alot earlier due to heavier AE spells. - Illusionists can kill any lone double arrow group mob if they have some space/time for it due to mezzing while moving, - it does however take a good while if it's even con or harder. - Coercers cannot do greens reliably. (I know this seems sad) 9: Till lvl 38 neither class offers mutch added utility, then Illusionists gets group invis, and coercers doesnt. - This lets an illusionists group have an ALOT easier time doing a corpse recovery, or get to where they want to fight. - I decided not to add charm, since it is too dangerous to use in a bad fight when it breaks, and in fights you are going to win, - it is not fun explaining to your group why your charmed mob just broke the encounter. (I tried this twice, and stopped charming) - - To sum it up with the CURRENT state of the game - - illusionists hands down have better tools at their disposals than coercers, - - both for soloing and grouping. - - (As noted in the step for step comparison, there are levels where coercers have an ability illusionists does not have yet) (In small or melee-light groups, Coercers does more damage on single target mobs) (Theese advantages does fortunately not compensate for bad players, and enchanters are enough in demand that whoever is LFG gets invited) Please correct my list if it goes wrong somewhere, i'll edit the post. Also, please note, i do NOT care how balance is reached, i would suggest giving coercers something different from illusionists to excell in, instead of nerfing illusionists.
I do appreciate you commenting on everything, both Dainger, and Orki. While I see your point about Powergamers vs the... power casual gamer, I would like it to be known, that as I have done a fair share of Fed-ex quests, it is nowhere near the majority of them. I do not have time today, but quickly, at lvl 47, I can solo ^^ green mobs. And the power-gamer isnt necessarily better than the next guy, instead he sticks to a routine, over and over. So when something different happens, I would rather be with the person who has a wider range of experiences. Just as you said about the fat kid on the bench, that fat kid just might be better than everyone on your team, but because you pre-judge, you will never know unless forced to because lack of options. There are some that only need study 5 minutes, and some that need to study the same topics 2 hours. Those who study 2 hours "should" do better, but do not always. Some who are the smartest, are not the best under pressure, and some are. I know this from my time spent in Iraq, some of the dumbest people can do some amazing things during a battle, and those who are the tough, and looked at as brave, can do just the opposite. I hope you see my point. Valizak Ultramind, 65 enchanter ( coercer ), Tunare ( Ex-"powergamer" ). Valizak, 47 Coercer, Mistmoore ( Spontaneous Player Extraordinare )
Valizak Orki nailed bull eye I AM powergamer and that is a reason why I shelfed my coercer after I beat game with him and got to the limits you not likely ever be.... In EQ1 I played class (from game release) that seen both shame and glory ... necromancer. We been demigods in 99 before Vision (tm) nerfed us 17 time in first 19 patches and for 3 years we been no more then twich-*$%#&! ... but then again during PoP release those of us who survived came on to the top of the food chain of killers But back to business... I am one of coinvetors root-HO-mez kiting. So I did my fair share of soloing but not for exp, quests or loot - out of curiosity only. Why you may ask? well I give you simple and hard numbers. Soloing in EverFrost at lvl 47 (Kromice cave/glacier bears/icegills fishermens) with Adept 3 - Master 1 spell set I could squeeze at best ~2.5-3% per hour (vs. 4% for assasins) in below average group cleaning Dyreck floor and Rem Pugilist area or none stop killing glacier constructs I easy scored 10-12% per hour at lvls 48-49. Completing "Hunters" quests from EverFrost docks (like killing 10 bears) net 0.25% upon completion and around 1-4gp cash (haha?). Back to killing double ups - while back before resistance nerf for *$%#&! and gigle at lvl 47 I have killed lvl 46 snow leopard - took me good 15 min and like 4 or 5 attempts before I made it right. There is no brain in that - pure luck. Before mitingation nerf I was able rather easy solo lowest green single arrow up groups with 2 monsters with beguile. So please spare me about your solo skills ... If you would tell me that soloed bloodtristy leopard I'd tell you "wellcome to the club" before that? ... get some training As it stands now - both classes are reduced to the role "buff-bot". Major problem with coercer (I cannt comment for illusionist for that) - it NOT fun to play like Orki said its not powerhouse class as it supose to be according to advertisement. I admit my expectations that beguile, stuns, mezes, stifles, roots will rock the game failed.... Nowdays I happily play my baby warlock. Green double ups not even remotely chellenging amount of stuns on independed timer simply fantastic, roots easy hold vs. chain nukage (presuming that you dont use HO lol). In grouo my untility rival to enchanters - Venomous runes, Dark Park, Accord, Boon of Void, Curse of Null (drop str and int of mob .... and as result severly damage fighting capability of mobs). Heck my warlock Adept 1 lvl 23 nuke do more damage at lvl 30 then Master 1 lvl 42 nuke do at lvl 50 for coercer... I dont want even start about efficiency. Lol my lvl 20 warlock Adept 1 AE at lvl 30 do more damage then Master 1 lvl 50 coercers AE per mob The only reason why I log my coercer is to keep up with guild on end-game content, to play buff-bot then guild need it and to make money playing game that have name EverHarvest 2 (and no rares not the main sourse of it lol, collectible are) I dont put much trust in LU7 but we'll see. If LU7 grant to coercer ability charm double ups mobs then coercer will worth while to play again
Well, I will be honest. I think you are probably 80% of what you say you are. This will be my last post, I was willing to discuss things, but you are stubborn and close-minded. Coercers are not the greatest, what can I say. But its what the person behind the screen is willing to make of it. Sorry that you were not willing to listen, or could admit you were wrong, even if in some way. Do take care. Best of wishes to you in RL as well as in game. Valizak "It is not the way something looks, it is the way you look at it." - Me.
