Sciek here we go again then what balance youa are talking about accoring to YOUR words not mine Illusionist have 3 mez on independed timer 2 classical and 1 nuke-mez. Nuke-mez take out mob of doing damage right? so its method of crowd control right? So danm every illusionist using nukage for mezing right? ... wrong Same goes for Beguile. Its pure DPS tool nothing more nothing less. As been already told many time Beguile not work on double up and double up the only type of mob that requied crowed control. Any tank or caster alike can tank regular quality mob w/o much hasle - CC not needed in such case. You again not read what I said about cast-recast timer on Beguile, As it now it just fine, duration a bit short but other then that? power cost/resist rate/recast timer/cast time - all fine
I feel like I'm on a mission here. Instead of fighting one another for who is better at what, I think you should be fighting SoE to design (or even redesign) content to justify having utility and skill based characters. The game is so rediculously easy that - and I'm just being honest here - neither subclass is of particular importance in 99.9999999% of the game. Healer/Tank/DPS can take out group encounter after group encounter and never break a sweat. That is what really sucks for you guys (and gals). Get them to change that and then work on refining your class abilities. The other choice, of course, is to argue for more DPS. /sigh I'll be rooting you on!
Um, your first paragraph I don't think I understand correctly or you're just basically agreeing with what I said and repeating what you said.... In short, right now we are pretty much balanced in the CC department. I'll agree with the second paragraph based on what you and others have reported about Beguile in it's current state. That's not what I was trying to point out anyway. What I was trying to Highlight is that Beguile does have the potential to be a CC tool and a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] powerful CC tool at that. Boosting Charm is tricky because it not only boosts your DPS potential, it also CAN be a boost to your CC potential depending on how much adjusting is done to it. I'll admit I don't know all the details of beguile as far as casting time, recast delay, duration, etc... I do know how charms can and have severely imbalanced other games. EQ1 Enchanters ring a bell??? Hence, my warning post about the pitfalls of boosting coercer charm too much.
Eadric, you make a good point about *content* being the real source of enchanters' weakness. Someone else pointed out that all classes have content-specific abilities, but enchanters are the only content-specific subclass. In 95% of the game, we're siginificantly under par, as we cannot fulfill the mage archetype's primary DPS role. In the other 5%, we're nearly required, where CC or mana regen for a boss fight is the difference between a win and a wipe. However, I do not believe this will change. The archetype system is designed to eliminate the necessity of any particular class. Once a group has one fighter, one priest, one scout, one mage and two of anything, they are supposed to be ready for all level-appropriate content. The "holy trinity" has been specifically and openly designed *out* of EQ2. Therefore, it's unlikely that we'll see any effort on SOE's part to add large amounts of new content where enchanters are required. I think that's a good decision on their part. EQ1's restrictive grouping needs were horrible for anyone playing a SK, Ranger, Mage or the like. EQ2's archetype system is a far better approach. SOE just needs to fix enchanters so we can actually fulfill our archetype's primary role
Sciek even it will work (I hope so) Beguile aren't going to serve any type of CC. Basically how it work now (and most likely how it going to work in future).... Puller getting big pack of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] - you target highest con of casting/scout mob (usually 1 arrow up mob) and immideatly assist with it to MT. 36s of charm not good enouth to kill with charmed pet anything if any other damage not added. If you try use charm in CC matter (aka say you have add of 2 one arrow up mob you charm one sick it on other ...) once charm brakes and both mob still alive they both comming after coercer. Umm I already dont know what analogy to give you to convince you that Baguile can be called CC tool as much as Illusionist DD spell that have chance to mez mob
Ok since its been mentioned here that Illusionists get a chance to stun as a side effect of one of our nuke lines lets just get this straight. There is a very good reason why NOBODY should consider this a 3rd mez and that is that its just [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] unreliable. I did a little test tonight using Psychic Assailent @ master 1 vs random mobs in Archers Forest in Antonica. Mob levels ranged from 13 to 15 which is 30 levels lower then me so resists shouldn't be a factor. Out of 50 casts I managed to stun 19 times. The stun lasts for approx. 15 seconds. I have never, nor do I know of any other illusionist, that would ever consider trying to use this spell or its upgrade Aneurysm, in a group for CC. I will try and test Aneurysm later to see if I get different results but I only have that at Adept 1. At adept 1 Aneurysm does less damage then my master 1 Psychic Assailent, it will be interesting to see if it stuns as well or not.
Augur I agree with you whole heartedly. This line is the counterpart to the coercers nuke with root line. But ..... just to play devil's advocate for a second ... your objection to it being counted as a mezz is that it does not always take effect. But this is equivalent to saying its resist rate is too high. If the mezz portion landed more often then it would be a viable mezz spell. The relevance of this? It is not whether the spell has, or has not, a role as part of crowd control NOW. It is the purpose the spell is intended to serve. A nuke/mezz is not intended for use in CC, to make it so would either overpower the spell or force the nuke to be so pitiful that it might as well not be there. This is very very similar to the way charm should be viewed. For as long as charm is to be used for DPS it will not, and can never, be a CC tool.
Az that's my point exactly - You cannt view nuke that have chance to mez (stun) as part of CC routine - absolutely same goes for Beguile
The point remains that any kind of viable Charm is a de facto CC tool. It takes a mob out for a period of time and that mob can be used for dps. Sounds like a good deal to me. I do not wish to see any class become overbalanced due to this capability and am glad SOE is being smart here. There is a long way to go for overall balance to be acheived but IMO balance is now considerably better than it was anytime in the Nov thru January time frame.
Be nice to come out here and actually see a normal conversation about the issues. The constant verbal battleing solves absolutly nothing. Every Illusionist out here agrees that Coercer class needs ot be fixed. So WHY do we need to keep hashing about the " OMG Illusionist this and that and we dont have this and that" I feel like im on a EQ1 Ranger page. Let's get issues identified and get possible solutions into one well thought out post and stop the wah wah fest! If i want to see people complain I'd go read WoW forums. Tant you have alot of good points but your writing style is abrasive and argumentative. This leads to an immediate defensive position. Work with us as a whole and stop the, what seems like to me, aggresived and attack type posting. In the end it wont do any good for the Enchanter class as a whole.
From a "high end" coercer, who raids regularly with illusionists: Illusionists can drain mobs MANY MANY times faster, and can drain raid mobs. Coercers drains do not work well on raid mobs except for one spell (Seizure) that does more damage than drain (189-231 damage, drains by 39-48). We have a drain dot that we can use as well (Anguish) that drains 7 power every 4 seconds (for 24 seconds). Illusionists can lock down 2 mobs safely in most cases. Coercers in raid situations can almost but not quite safely lock down a single mob. And this is a coercer issue that has gone back and forth for quite some time as they play with our spells. 2 consecutive resists, which happens often enough (Almost every raid) and we have a major problem. Sometimes our AE mez will break our single target mez when it wears off, and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes our stun will break our mez when it wears off. All depends on the last patch and changes every few days it appears. And this is chain-casting enthrall every time it is ready on a single mob. It still can not hold a single raid mob consistantly enough to hold it for the 10-15 minutes required for some raids. Shortening the recast on enthrall by .5 a second would allow that 3rd attempt on a mob, and would allow us to safely hold a single mob. Illusionists get a group invis. Coercers get a single target invis. Illusionists get a better haste (It may be more annoying to cast, but the benefits ARE better). Coercers get a group haste that hastes for less %. I would have to say I would much rather have a more effective haste (atleast now with the decent durations) than a less effective group haste. Hasting the wizard, myself, the mage, and the healers really is of no benefit. Illusionists get way better AoE's than coercers do. My best AoE does 104-128 damage for 172 power -- the spell is basically worthless for me unless we get an encounter with 5+ mobs in it. And even at 5 or 6 mobs, it is much less power effective than my direct damage spell which does 499-610 for 118 power. ------ Coercers get a better power regen than illusionists do. Between our clarity (40power every 6 seconds @adept1), Mind's Eye (8 power every 4.5 seconds @ app4), and Besklor's Mind Gorge (43 power every 4.8 seconds -- although this spell is only "on" 1/3rd of the time with a duration of 24 seconds, and recast of 45). This is better, although not unbalancing. Coercers get charm. Charm is currently broken into uselessness. We can charm ^'s again, however, about 1/3rd of the fights, for no real explainable reason, the encounter becomes bugged, and no XP, loot, or quest updates are given. In it's current form, it is MUCH more of a hinderance than it would be useful. Again, this is a coercer issue, when/if it ever becomes fixed, it may be used as a form of CC, although that has yet to be determined. If it's 36s fixed, then it could be used as a reliable form of CC in short bursts adding some damage (However, charm is not rechargable like mez -- We WILL get beat on when it breaks every 36s unlike a mez). Coercers stifle does not work on raid mobs. Our stuns (I don't believe illusionists have any that do either) do not work on raid mobs. Our roots (as well as illlusionists) do not work on raid mobs. Coercer DD's are better than illusionists, although even that is "broke". At level 28 we get Despotic Mind @ Master 1, it inflicts 499-610 damage and generates a thoughstone for 118 power. Cast time of 2.0, recast of 9.0. It's my main form of DPS. At 42.6 we get Tyrannical Mind @ Adept 1, it inflicts 471-576 damage and generates a thoughstone for 144 power. Same cast time/recast. I don't have the numbers for a master 1, but I suspect it will be about 5% more damage for 25% more power (as most of our spells seem to follow that pattern) making it 494-604 damage for 180 power. It's a complete non-upgrade at all. Again, that's a coercer issue. Coercers get a debuff DoT (Despair), that slows a mob by 10% and reduces it's mitigation against mental and divine by 1100+. I am not aware of any corresponding illusionist ability. This is in addition to our debuff (Ravaged Psyche) that knocks down Arcane, Elemental, and Noxious by 1000+. -------------------- In short, I see no real inbalance between illusionist and coercer from the "design", it's just right now coercers issues seem to affect the core of their abilities more so than illusionists. Our inability to even control a single mob for long periods of time, our inability to be effective on raids by power draining or stifling, and our inability to help move groups from one place to another, really REALLY hurts our subclass. On raids the only thing we do well is generate power for the coercer s group since Mind's Eye and Besklor's is group-only. Out of group, clarity is very comparible to insight. I'd like to see charm FIXED -- no more breaking encounters. I'd like to see enthralls re-cast reduced from 8.0 seconds to 7.5 seconds to allow a 3rd casting before the original drops. I'd like to see the "does not work on epic encounters" removed from Agonizing Silence (Stifle). I'd like to see Tyranical Mind's output damage doubled or perhaps even tripled (Our big DD at level 43 doing 1800 damage would seem in line with wizards doing 3k on ice comet). *AND* I would like to see illusionist DPS brought in line with this as well, albeit a different, but similiar, achievable DPS -- perhaps in their DoT's or AoE spells.
That was a fairly reasonable post, Motley. A few things, though. About power draining raid mobs, I assume you are referring to Mind Drain. Speechless, our best power drain spell, doesnt work on raid mobs. In fact, it doesnt work on anything over level 48. Mind Drain was actually a downgrade, but it can be used on raid mobs. It drains about 150 power on impact, and 30ish every 5 seconds, for 4 ticks. Recast about 7 seconds. Considering how much power a raid mob has, trying to drain it with Mind Drain is like using a garden hose to drain the hoover dam. As for mezzing, the edge has to go to coercers now, after the last patch. AE mezz is incredibly useful, and I have seen it firsthand used in "ring events". It can also be used affectively on normal pulls. Yes, it has a long recast time, but you only need to cast it once, at the beginning of the fight, then follow it up with your regular mezzs, to keep everything locked down. Our AE Mezz, as you know, essentially stuns us. Group Invis is nice, and I cant deny it. It makes up for having no group breeze or haste. Yes, we have better AEs, though, but unless we had an AE magic debuff, we never hit for full damage. Our Single-targeted damage spells are pathetic. Our stifles dont work on raid mobs either. In fact, some of our best spells, that have a stifle side affect on it (like level 50 Color Shower), dont work on raid mobs, which really sucks. Our debuff DoT lowers the mobs resistances a lot. It really helps with damage. Cylanth 50 Illusionist
I say buff up Coercer charm and then let's wait and see what the chanter dps change brings us before we continue discussing balancing. That patch is going to throw things all out of whack and we'll have to start all over from square 1.
I use DoTs all the time. But I also use Haruspex. I have no problems with my coercer. You appear to be a know-it-all when I dont think you know S***. I have read many of your posts now, and have come to the conlusion Tanatus, that you just do not know how to play a coercer. I am sorry there are people like you that play my class. Try a tank, should be easy enough for you. Valizak, 65 Coercer, Tunare, Retired August 2003, deployed to Fallujah Iraq, OIF. Sept 2003-2004 Valizak, 47 Coercer, Mistmoore.
I am sorry for this un-explainable reply, it was in reply to a post a month ago. If anyone has serious concerns about the Coercer, I woudl like to know what they are, because I see none. And there is something wrong with Charm, yes. But as of right now, it can be used to a great advantage. I use it everyday I play.
A Sincere apology, I have a question for Illusionists, I see all this about the group invis vs our single target invis.... Does your invis grant a movement bonus? Ours does, 5% for Adept 1, and 8% for Master 1 ( ignore ). Sure group invis is nice, but when I want to get somewhere safe, I prefer the coercers ( assuming there is no Movement bonus with your's). I have not seen anyone bring that up yet, and I am surprized. Well, if an Illusionist could tell me, I would appreciate that.
Movement bonus? Wow. I didn't know any invisibility spells granted a movement bonus. Illusionist single-target invis spells have slight movement penalties. The group invis is neutral in that regard. It's a situational spell, but very useful in some spots.
Yes, the movement speed granted by coercer invisibility was supposed to be the compensating factor for the Illusionists having the group invisibility. Also, I am curious to compare the lvls of invisibility granted. Ignore, Adept 1 : Grants level 41 invisibility to target, - Increase speed of target when not in combat by 5%. I get a new Invisibility in 50%, which is the final invis, so I am using the lvl 30's invis. I will post those stats when I get it.
Sure a small movement speed buff is cool. But how can you compare the utility of single target invisibility with group invisibility. For me Group invi is the one of the best utility spells in the game, probably the best. Think about how much time you can spare with it, debt avoided, etc. A movement speed buff on single target invisibility can in no way compensate the group invisibility.
