I claim to a group (raid or exp) that i will be able to maintain 3 mezzes indefinately. That 4 is possible....but due to resists....i wouldn't count on it. With our 38 mezz, we are able to hold 2 mob's indefinately. With our 2nd mezz it only adds the ability to hold 1 more MoB mezzed - the duration of our 2nd mezz is exactly 1/2 of the standard mezz duration.....so it follows if coercers and illusionists claim they can maintain 2 mezzes via our 38 mezz at a duration of 42 seconds....than our 21 second duration mezz can only hold one more MoB. Illusionist's at level 40 have a mezz training choice....which is an upgrade to our 38 mezz with 8 second longer duration. If an illusionist has chosen this...they can than feel very safe claiming they can mezz 4 MoB's indefinately. I did not choose this choice personally...but chose an upgraded pet. So in other words....our extra mezz only adds 1 more possible continually mezzed MoB to our arsenal. With our 38 standard mezz we can hold 2...just as coercers claim they can hold 2 with their 38 mezz. Coercer's do not have a training mezz choice at 40. In a perfect display of enchanter talent, an illusionst could theoretically hold 5 MoB's mezzed.....This is barring no resists whatsoever...and is akin to a coercer claiming they can mezz 3 MoB's with just their one mezz. 5 won't happen - 4 will happen if you have chosen the training mezz. 3 is solid either way.
>>I am sure there have been times when we have all been stunned or stifled. BUT can anyone honestly say that they were not being beat on at the time and wanted to cast a mezz? I can say that coercers would not miss the ability to mezz while stifled if it was removed. In all practical situations it is a useless effect. Sure. I was being beat on and wanted to cast mez, but guess what I was stifled/stun so I couldn't. Even when being beat on there's a good chance to finish the spell without being interupted. Look at it this way 100% uninteruptable except say the 25% of the time when the mob meleeing you stuns/stifles you( chance is prolly higher than 25% in my experience) Vs 75% chance to finish casting the spell no matter what ( chance is probably lower in reality), even if the mob stuns/stifles you. Yes the numbers are made up, and yes you'll be quick to point out "But you shouldn't get melee'd cause you can run away while mezing" BULL HOOEY. you can't always run away. In fact most of the times I've been stifled have been while I was running away to gain distance, and I got stifled anyway. Plus there's many times where adds and space are issues that limit any signifcant movement on the part of the enchanter. I'll grant that I like uninteruptable more than stun/stifle proof, but I will not concede that your trait is not powerful and significant in its own right. I'd give up my second mez in an instant for a stronger construct. its low aggro DPS, and often the only spell I can cast on a few epic mobs ( although I don't think it does any damage either), but thats not the point. I'd also consider losing it for charm, or drop it in a heart beat for the conjuror's absorb 3 hit spell. Unfortunately I don't have any of those things. I have a 21 second mez. its good, helps get the job done more easily sometimes. And yet...I never had any problem keeping three mobs locked down back when I had a single mez... I don't see why it should be any different for you. I mean I guess resists are a bit worse now, but you still have a 14 second stun you can use during the recast timer. And yes I know you can't mez the mob thats stunned, but you can wait for the recast timer on mez to cycle, and/or mez the next mob. And assuming they ever fix the maintained spell window, you'll be able to rightlcick and remove the stun/pot effect before mezing. As for taking out four mbos indefitnely... seriously when was the last time you needed to? Even heart of fear only has a max of 4 mobs, one of which will be engaged. We're a bit better off sure, I'm not trying to deny it, merely trying to control how powerful people who've never used the ability seem to think it is. Coercer's try and make CR look like its as powerful as pre-nerf Mind's Eye or creates a gap that was a gaping and wide as the one Mind's Eye created. That is simply not the case. Furthermore, I do think post nerf coercer's are short changed when it comes to overall power and utility as an enchanter. I don't think; however, that you should press for changes by picking apart illusionist abilities. With the possible exception of Devitalizing stare's new power cost, I can't think of a single Illusionist spell that, as it stands currently, is overpowered or unbalancing. A lot of useful stuff its true, and a skill set I'm proud to have access to, but nothing overpowering. Its Coercer's who are weak and need help. not Illusionists who are overpowered. Message Edited by Vurin on 03-15-2005 04:13 PM
Just thinking about something here. First: If coercer's had a level 40 training mezz they could maintain mezz on 3 MoB's, as an illusionist can with the training mezz alone. Perhaps, we can get an approximate feel for the dev's vision of each subclasses role by observing what our level 40 training choices are. Just had to copy and paste from my own post, as i can't find the original which was in the spells and abilities section. Illusionist (Level 40) Mespha's Torturous Visions - An advanced form of Tormenting Visions. As a bonus to Tormenting Visions it decreases Agility. Only debuffs agility by 17 which is almost nothing. And damage wise its only 2 points stronger per tick at 50 w/ app 4. if you had adept 3 Lobotomize (level 46 DoT) it'd be stronger. The DPS reduction components are identical. (Credit goes to Vurin for this info) Lobotomize (Level 46) Basten's Construct of Light - An advanced form of Construct of Order. As a bonus to Construct of Order it summons a different construct. I finally settled on this upgrade for my level 40 training spell and am satisfied w/ it. This summons a pet that is of equal level to the caster and is 1 arrow down - as opposed to my adept 1 construct of logic which is 1 level below the caster and 2 arrows down. I have not done any DPS parsing w/ these pet's yet to give any kind of empirical data but from "eyeballing" it this pet seems to outdo my old pet which is nice. I also have not yet reached the level for our next construct upgrade - Assuming that the upgrade follows' suit and summons a pet that is 1 level below the caster and 2 arrows down (at adept level) than i think this upgrade choice should do more DPS than our eventual upgrade. When summoned the construct is a mass of glowing sparkly lights that all come together to form a somewhat humanoid shape. So it kind of looks like summoner's air pet's....but instead of swirling air it's sparkling light. Construct of Logic (Level 46.8) Moeba's Chroma Clash - An advanced form of Bewildering Cascade. As a bonus to Bewildering Cascade it has a chance to briefly stun the enemy and its allies when the original stun expires. An illusionist friend of mine chose this during one of the /respec's and found it to be broken as well - When the 2nd chance to stun the encounter would go off he would recieve an error. This choice if ever working properly would be hopefully effective. Until someone can test it when it's fixed we'll not know though Stunning Array (Level 44) Tevalian's Seize Ego - An advanced form of Capture Mind. As a bonus to Capture Mind it has a longer duration. IMO this choice is broken currently. When i tested it before the patch it shared the same timer as capture mind, and would mezz i think for 8 seconds longer than capture mind. The problem was, you can not move about and run while casting this spell like you can w/ Capture Mind and entrance. This bothered me as i greatly enjoy being able to cast on the go. If this ever does get fixed...and i am sure it will at some point - i feel this may be the best level 40 choice. The extra 8 seconds of mezz that i had from the level 20 training choice while i used it proved to be very helpful while soloing multi mob encounters. I have no doubt this will act the same way when it does actually share the same traits as the entrance line. The level 40 Mezz "Convincing Regalia" is the final Mezz Illusionists recieve - it is not an upgrade to Capture Mind. They are on Seperate timers and Convincing Regalia has a 21 second duration compared to Capture Mind's 42 second duration. In other words there is currently no upgrade for this spell for levels 50 and below. I can not find the post that was listed on spells and abilities forums that showed what the coercer training's were.....but if i remember - you had a withering silence upgrade, and your power tap as 2 of your choices...i don't recall what the other's were. Illu's have to choose from a: Mezz upgrade Pet Upgrade AoE stun upgrade DoT w/ mellee decrease upgrade I suggest that by not including a mezz upgrade for the coercer 40 training choice....and of course not including a 2nd 40+ mezz for coercer's...the dev's intended this area to be slightly more the illusionist's realm. If this logic makes sense....it would also follow that our level 30 training choice we were both offered a breeze upgrade. Suggesting that our power regen from breeze was always intended to be equal. Coercer's obviously have a few other means of accomplishing power regen. But at least it does seem that Insight and Clarity are on par with eachother.
I did volunteer in some other post already to give up my second mez for an upgrade of Daunting Gaze. Would you be willing to give up this spell line for a second mez?
Zitha Instantly ... I got AE stun only lvl 50 - Illusionist have this spell all the time... Hell my short duration AE stun 100X more usefull then my single stun with mana-drain over time built-in effect... Needless to say it was nice try to convice ppl what 1 mez 42s and 1 mez 21 barely enouth to keep 3 mob mezed not 4 - which is not true and here is why... Coercer must chain cast mez every 20-25second because my mez so easy to interupt, Illusionist can afford recast Entrance then timer around 34-38 second.... If my mez that I recast at 20s will resist I will have excatly 2 more attempt w/o risk been interupted Illsionist can refresh mez at 30-32 second and still have exactly same 2 more attempt w/o risk been interupted
Capture mind has a 42 second duration and I dunno about your mez, but it's very common for it to fade several seconds before that. So, how on earth do you figure that you can wait until you have 10-12 seconds left on a mez, assuming it lasts every second of it's duration, and have time to recast it twice without being interrupted? Where the hell are you fighting that you can just run around kiting a mob for 8 seconds regularly? As I and others have said all along, YES coercers probably need a boost in crowd control ability... BUT, you're vastly overblowing the difference in ability between the two subclasses when you claim that a coercer can only mez 2 mobs and an illusionist can do 4. An illusionist CAN lock down 4 mobs, but it's far from reliable and not even close to a guaranteed thing. I think it's probably fair to say an illusionist can lock down 4 mobs with about the same reliability that a coercer can lock down 3. if you have a 42s mez, you SHOULD be able to lock down 3 mobs pretty reliably.
Sciek and I alrady 100 explain why I cannt afford do anything but chain mez every 20-25second if you control 2 mob - you pretty much go like that Mez - assist tank with something usefull (power drain, single target stun, Nuke HO ,... you named) - mez second mob and here interesting thing starts you have first mez already lasted 10s and second just started - once you timer refreshed 2s cast 8 second recast I have on a first mez 20s and second mez 8 second. If fail on mez once that mean next time I can remez mob at point 30s and next time at point 40s. Basically as timer refresh buttom can be use - as soon as it ready = 10s past. If fail on first mob I have 2 option try remez it 10s later (30s) timer or mob on second mob and try remez first mob at time (40s) which dont leave any space for any mishap. Illusionist can afford brake 1 mob lose direct melee attack wont stop casting mez in most cases. So you can afford 1 extra recast timer tic for each mez compare to Coercer, Thats why to be on a safe side Coercer remez at timer 20s and Illusionist at 30s In other words fair would be say IF I'd have uninteruptable mez THEN I'd able lock 3 mobs with more or less success. As it stands now? - 2 mob top,
If Tanatus made an illusionist and spent as much time playing it as he does complaining about it, he would be level 50 now and we could hear him complaining about illusionists instead of coercers. The choices are available for people to select a class based upon their playing style. If you choose a class that does not match your playing style, then Boo Hoo. If SOE does a class nerf, then get over it already. It happens to everybody. I wonder if some of these professional forum jockeys even have the character they claim. Lord only knows when they play 'em.
The problem arises when you have 2 classes compteting for the same role, and one is superior to the other by a significant margin. Say, if wizards did twice the damage warlocks did, why would you invite the warlock again? Except if you know he's a nice chap, with great jokes.
As we are both willing to trade our spells, this can now mean different things: either: both spells are good and have its benefit or: we both play the wrong subclass and the other class would fit for our playstyle better. or: the grass is just always greener on the other side.
(First off: the following is in regard to everyday grouping and does in no means include raid situation. Raids have their own dynamics, which often is hard to bring in balance with the rest of the content. There are several classes atm that dont fit well in raids or are outperformed by others as their strength - although useful in normal gameplay - dont bring enough benefit in raid situation. Many spells dont work or dont stack which results in even more inbalance in raids. This is a general problem many classes face atm and need to be looked at urgently.) encanta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i come to the conclusion that this is exactly the critical point. Coercer are NOT meant to have equal CC as illusionist. When I started playing I did research on several classes to find out what would fit for me. What I came across with at more or less every class, was that there is usually one subclass more offensive and the other more defensive oriented. With other words one can dish out more dmg whereas the other subclass is better in preventing dmg (and usually a bit more group oriented with better buffs). CC by itself is used to prevent dmg. Therefor enchanter class is the most defensive oriented class of the mage archetyp. From the two subclasses illusionist is the more defensive one, coercer is the more offensive subclass. At least I got this impression when reading several class descriptions. Mez is definitely a defensive ability. Maybe the highest form of a defense spell as damage gets reduced to zero. At the other side its only in effect as long as the target doesn’t get hurt, as long as noone takes offensive actions against it. With this in mind it makes perfect sense that illusionists as the more defensive subclass are better in mezzing and can chose a mez trait. Wheras coercer get the long duration stun line and can chose a trait to Daunting Gaze. Cause to a stunned target you can still take offensive actions, which is more in line with coercer, who are the more offensive oriented enchanter subclass. The two subclasses are NOT meant to do everything with same effectiveness. The one is meant to be better in defense (and CC being part of it), the other better in offense. If we want be able to do everything the same, we can just give up the 2 subclasses and combine them to one enchanter class. IF there is some inbalance between coercer and illusionist then this is not founded in the fact that illusionist are better in mezing or CC. IF there is an imbalance then it is founded in the fact that coercer give up some CC abilities in favor of more offense, yet their dps doesn’t reflect this. (That coercer dps in the long run isnt significantly higher than illusionist dps is just an assumption at this point though, as I have not seen any data yet that would confirm this.) So if we want balance between coercer and illusionist we should stop to compare one spell against the other and focus on the whole picture. Which (a bit simplified) looks like: Illusionist CC abilities are good. Coercer CC abilities are decent, only beaten by Illusionist. Both get the job done in everyday group situation. Illusionist dmg output is a joke. Coercer dps is not better. Balance in CC atm is as it should be IMO. Illusionists abilities slightly better as they are the defensive oriented subclass. Balance in offensive department is completely off. Its not in balance with other archetyps, it not in balance with other mage classes and its not in balance within the enchanter subclasses as coercer should be able to dish out more dmg than illusionist. (Again, I do not know if they actually cannot do more overall dmg or not.) As it is now coercer are upset that they don’t have same CC/defensive abilities as illusionist. Which I consider a bit rediculous. Its like dirge complaining that they don’t have same group buffs as troubadour, or berserker complaining they dont have as high defense as guardian. If coercer feel there is an imbalance within the enchanter subclasses I would suggest to ask for some upgrade of the abilities they are meant to be stronger in (= offensive abilities) to even out the slight disadvantage in CC. (I repeat: i am not talking raid situation as raids follow different dynamics.) Message Edited by zitha on 03-16-2005 03:39 AM edited to correct form and make it better readable Message Edited by zitha on 03-16-2005 03:44 AM
Personally, I'd like to see things pan out like this: Illusionist = Better CC, and larger scale. More bent on order and control(Better AE mez's, consistancy in single-target mez's) Coercer = Functional CC, but less widespread. More bent on misdirection and chaos than control(Either a longer-term single mez, or the use of EQ1-style fear spells. Beguile would also be fine if it were functional in a manner that was useful.) Static Power Regen should undoubtably be the same. Temporary Power Regen(Via Power Taps) Illusionist = Better at affecting a multitude of creatures(AE, consecutively stacking power granted to the group as opposed to the way it is now, 8 per tick restored - regardless of # of mobs) Coercer = Better at affecting single targets with more potency(Single-target, a more fairly-scaled amount of power granted to the group, 1/2 of the current power drained or more - that is only my opinion) DPS Illusionist = Better AE, with a more even, dependable effect than before. Less resistable with less aggro - lets say. Coercer = Better single-target, with a more risk vs reward style spin on things. Get rid of Coercer AE altogether. Stuns I believe we should both have the same or extremely similar stun lines(though they are very close already). Utility Group invis is highly useful, however if our Aggro proc were fixed, and improved - I doubt many of my fellow Coercers would feel so strongly about the balance currently at work here. Mind you all of our spells need to be scaled the same way Wizard/Warlock spells have been currently scaled. I strongly believe the Enchanter class as whole needs alot of improvement. I'd like to get into the specifics of my above statements, but I need some direct information from Illusionists on the corresponding spells to compare and propose improvements or revisions from. I, for one, want our classes to be different. Thats what subclasses are all about - variation. But I do believe we need to work together to address where our common-ground is, and what areas should remain aligned with either side of the fence.
I think you have some rather good ideas here, but may be heading in the slightly wrong direction. The problem I've had with many of the posts in these ongoing arguments, is that they focus on comparing single spell to single spell. I'm not this ambitious myself, but I think the only way to really settle these arguments, would be to compare side by side lists of all Coercer and Illusionist spells from 20-50. that way, you can break down which side has advantages in which areas at each tier. When this is done, you can take a look at generally the lvl 40-50 spells, and start comparing the usefulness for raids/endgame. If someone actually feels like taking the time to do this, please do us all a favor. Make sure you research the spell effects by talking to a person from the opposing class and not just going off what is written on the spell desc. This way we can actually get useful numbers. Once we have this type of data, then we can work on _JOINTLY_ trying to improve the enchanter class as a whole. Lord knows we all need help, so let's work on getting ourselves balanced vs. all mages rather than against each other.
Orki nailed bull eye.... Coercer and Illusionist both are enchanter class and as such expect in group perform same role - namely provide CC, Untility and DPS. As it stands NOW - in all 3 area's Illusionist have serious advantage and there is ZERO reason to take coercer in group if illusionist availible. CC - Illusionist have HUGE advange 2 mez line, 1 cant be interupted, 9 second stun that do stack with mez thus can be used for CC. Coercer have single mez line that can be easy interupted and 14 second stun that NOT stack with mez due to power drain over time component hence this spell useless for CC (it DO have own uses due rather short casting time) Untility - Illusionist have same power gereneration Clarity = Insight (give or take they about same), Devitalizing Stare far superior over Devouring Toughts not because of secondary effects (altouth AE stifle is nice) but because of fact it cost 1/3 power compare to coercer 59 power vs. 176 power and more over hit whole encounter while coercers power drain hit single target. Mana tap part for both spell indentical as well as duration and recast timer. Mind Eye hardly worth having in spell book anymore for cost of 300 power coercer can provide for group additional 12 power/6second at Master 1 lvl which is frankly less then any piece of gear that have power regeneration on it (Robe on Invoker - 20, Totem of Hawk - 70, Prismatic - 12, Kite Sheild - 24, GEBs - 20, K'Naz ring - 15). Group invisibility by far margine best out of combat untility that exist in game. Haste for both classes rather useless but even then coercer can provide haste only for own group on raid - Illusionist can provide much better haste for whole raid so to speak. Both classes have couple more rather useless untility thou. For example coercer have reactive DD proc that goes off in 5% melee attack (not special only melee) and do ... 133-180DD (compare to base melee damage of brusier who use flail 160-410) DPS - Illusionist have even DPS with Coercer vs. Single target (Nightmare +Scorching Beam + Constuct of Logic = Tyrranical Mind + Seizure). And far far superior DPS in AE. Demoralizing Gaze 90-111 once 12s vs. Phantasmal Splendor 250-350 once in 12s and Color Shower 4X135 (520) once every 30s vs. Haruspex 1X133-180 once every 45s As you see advantage of Illusionist in every single area simply overwhelming and there is zero reason for group and raid alike to use coercer if illusionist are availible
Just FYI: even though we have single target haste, we can still only cast it on members of our group. At least the last raid i went on i was unable to cast on any other raid members unless they were in my group. Also....I think that both zitha and TeveLeezardbane are onto something with their posts. Both were very constructive and were a pleasure to read.
We know already that this is how you feel. You have repeated this over and over again. Now lets do the next step and instead of endless class envy please provide some constructive inputs. Share with us your vision in what direction you would like to see coercer class improved. What picture do you have of the two enchanter subclasses. What is your understanding of their role. Where do you think they should be same, in what area do you think they should be different. Should there be any difference at all? How do you see them fit into the archetype system. And so on.
Zitha I already posted its many time - fixes rather simple in CC area Reduce casting time for Enrall down to 1-1.5s - that will ofset uninteruptable mez of Illusionist and reduce recast timer for Entrall down to 3s - that will offset second mez line of Illusionist so we end up like this Illusionist 2 mez line, 1 mez cannt be interupted, 9 second stun that do stack with mez, Coercer - 1 mez like with 1.5s cast 3s recast and 14 stun that dont stack with mez. Fair and square? Fix Beguile for crist sake, let us charm everything but named mob, extend duration of beguile up to 3-10 min and make it random brakes depending on presence/absence resist debuffs, lvl ratio between caster and pet and link it to 1 of the stats (Intellect or Wisdom). That will fix offensive part of coercer
Thanks for summorize for me again. These are indeed constructive suggestions. The question that remains though is, if or how this spell changes would fit into the archetype / subclass system. For that reason I would like to discuss our understanding of coercer and illusionist class in general first. (Sorry if i have not been clear enough with my questions.) I think enchanter class as a whole needs a serious revise. And it would be helpful to know in what direction changes or upgrades are needed. To fix 2 spells wont be enough. Thus i am not so much asking for specific spell changes with numbers (although they will be very helpful later on) but for now just the direction. And then put our visions in the whole picture of the archetype system and evaluate if the direction we would like to see actually fits in there. This would go like this: If i understand it right your suggestions aim to bring coercer CC at par with illusionist and to improve coercer dps with help of a powerful pet. My understanding of coercer / illusionist class now doesnt make me feel comfortable with the direction you suggest for CC, as i regard mez as a highly defensive ability and illusionist as the more defensive oriented subclass IMO should be better there. Whereas i agree that coercer dps needs to be increased significantly and beguile could play an important part in it (not saying that i fully agree on the details of the spell changes you suggest though).
Thats actually what I'd like to see - the details of all our major spells compared statistically. So that we can start doing what the Devs apparantly cannot: make viable changes to our classes that fit our subclass type and fit well as far as class balance goes. Any Illusionists care to post the examine details for some of the aformentioned spells? Power Tap, Stuns(Short and Long), Mez's, AE Damage Spells, Single Damage spells, Dots, Power Drains, Stifles. Anything and everything that needs to be considered. There isn't any reason we should not get this out in the open and start fixing it. And on a side note, I believe what we're all going for here is specifically this: Two classes that aren't just mechanically different(IE small differences in our spells that are essentially the same, causing a lack of diversity in many areas), but functionally different(IE we have different abilities that function together for the same broad goal. And by different I mean truely different, as our Power Taps are. Not just something small like our long-duration stuns doing power over time damage as opposed to yours doing a power nuke - I feel those two spells should be the same, or at least much more similar. Even many variations of different professions in life still share the same foundations.) I think it can be accomplished so long as we all agree that both classes should have good and bad areas of expertiese. I for one do not want to play an Illusionist, playing a class that is almost completely the same would bore me. But as it stands is there a real, notable difference between the two? Aside from a few small differences in numbers? Alot of these changes, and what I'm assuming will come in the future, is going to harshly generalize our abilities. That troubles me greatly. So lets get the groundwork for a better future laid out now, I don't want us both to be known simply as "Enchanters".
I am a lvl43 Illusionist. I will make an attempt to make available screenshots for every level 20+ spell I have. I'll start at the top and work my way down. This may take some time though. -Jax
