I am trying to do no such thing. I'm trying to inform you of my experience with Speechless. Do you play an Illusionist? Have you tried casting Speechless and alternating with DOTs? Mathematics is no substitute for actual experience. I've never seen a stifle interrupt a spell already being cast. I could be wrong about that, I'll admit that right now, but I do not think stifle interrupts. It may have been due to lag that this occurred just yesterday, where a mob finished casting even after the stifle landed. I don't know. If I'm trying to "justify" something, I'll say so. I'm not. I'm trying to be informative, and if you don't want to accept the information from a source with actual experience in such things, then that is your problem. Back to the actual topic of this thread, I have a question for Coercers. Those of you that see our Speechless vs. your Stifles as an imbalance, what do you think the solution is? Give coercers their own version? Switch them entirely? Somehow improve your own stifles? Or.. something else?
Auk's correct, Using the numbers i posted.... If an illusionist wishes to cast speechless one time.....than the illusionist is free for 6 seconds to go offensive until the stifle wears off. The numbers i posted reflected an illusionist attempting to fully drain a MoB, which takes most often 3 casts....yet sometimes 2. (scarecrows in RV were the first regular MoB's i dealt with that required 3 casts...from that point of my level and exp hunting onwards it's been mostly 3...though sometimes there are MoB's that still require 2 casts) 2 casts to drain a MoB 4 seconds added for initial cast time. as pointed out...from this point on we have 6 seconds where speechless is effective. If we wish to land speechless on the MoB again before the stifle and drain has worn off (i.e. maximizing draining) than we must allow 4 more seconds within that 6 for re-casting speechless again. so that is where i came up with 2 seconds of offensive time....an illusionist can cast nightmare immediately after the initial speechless cast....and than speechless again immediately after the nightmare cast. 2 seconds for offensive spells --> allowing 4 more seconds to again cast speechless 4 seconds to cast speechless the second time. As this scenario requires only 2 casts of speechless to drain the MoB....after 10 seconds the Illusionist is free to go offensive. With 2 seconds of offensive time during the draining. 3 casts to drain a MoB 4 seconds added for initial cast 2 seconds for offensive actions inbetween speechless casts 4 seconds for 2nd speechless cast Generally most MoB's that require 3 casts for me do not need a 3rd full length speechless to finish the job after the 2nd cast So i usually cut my 2nd speechless's duration short by immediately recasting speechless....allowing the 2nd speechless only 4 or 5 seconds of duration. By doing this i'm allowed to go fully offensive immediately after the 3rd cast. There are some regular MoB's now a-days that require 3 full durations to drain the MoB....if i know this beforehand, i allow myself again a 2 second gap between the 2nd and 3rd to maximize draining fullly. 4 seconds for 3rd speechless cast With this 3 cast scenario an illusionist is free to go offensive after 14 seconds if the illusionist cuts his 2nd speechless duration down.....16 seconds if the illusionist wants full draining from each cast. With 2 seconds of offensive cast time if the illusionist cut his 2nd speechless duration. With 4 seconds of offensive cast time if the illusionist allows the 2nd speechless full duration. If an illusionist uses the 6 seconds after the first speechless cast to go offensive......than after 6 seconds the MoB will be fully able to use specials again....AND it will take 4 more seconds of the MoB being unstifled before the illusionist can cast again. This is why i did not count 6 seconds of offensive time but rather 2 seconds. Also worthy of mention in regards to speechless....one resist set's an illusionist back 4 seconds. I didn't try to incorporate resists into the equation....but rather am showing a scenario where we have no resists whatsoever. At my level most MoB's i can cast speechless on (49 and below) do not resist it too often....but it does happen, especially on named MoB's. But i'd assume this to be universal and therefore it's not worth calculating resists as coercer's must deal with the same problem. I'm not attempting to hide anything here....this info i posted hoping to give coercer's a feel for how speechless works when used in the field. My info on Coercer DPS'ing while stifling was incorrect. (i will edit out those specific comments) I have to apologize for this as i was only capable of recalling what some coercer posted in response to one of my threads months ago, in regards to how well they drained....i looked up one of the spells and was shocked to see that the coercer claimed as the number 1 spell for priority of draining a MoB was i think "seizure" which is a DD nuke with "a chance to drain" or whatever. I'm not sure why that coercer claimed a DD nuke with a chance to drain was his number 1 spell. Perhaps he meant it's the "first spell he casts" while attempting to drain/stifle....maybe due to recast timer being long? So knowing i have no real world experience with how a coercer drains/stifles.....i also know that a coercer has no realworld exp with illusionist draining/stifling. If anything i hope that these figures make sense. Do illusionist have more offensive time while draining/stifling than coercers? 2 seconds while draining/stifling....and than due to how fast speechless drains - unlimited offensive time after the MoB's fully drained. So an illu get's; 2 seconds for offensive time 8-12 seconds of total defense time (depending on how much power the MoB has) The remaining battle can be purely offensive. As another quick point.....lately depending on my tank's level i sometimes completely forgo draining/stifling MoB's....as while exp grouping with certain groups/tanks the draining doesn't seem to make as large of a difference as it did while exploring RE. I still find it useful in small groups. Coercer's must feel the same @ the 45+ level. Illusionist's are almost completely defensive while draining a MoB. We're allowed complete offensive freedom after the our final cast of speechless on a MoB, 10-12 seconds into the fight.
I am doing this more and more as well Dainger. Speachless while seemingly terriffic in groups when you get it at 28 and extreamly usefull all thru the 30's when fighting ^^ mobs I find that I am useing it less and less post 40 and rarely at now (execpt when I solo) as it just doesnt seem worth it to drain a mob thats going to die just as the second cast finishes. Unless there is only one healer that is really struggling for power, I just stay offensive. The only time I really miss Speechless is on mobs that it wont work on, those 49+ named mobs that have a ton of power
encanta Let me elaborate in simplest terms why mana drain is primal imperivitive with any raid mob. Basically everything very simple... Raid mob damage comes from 3 major sourses - Innate Attack (cannt be blocked, resisted, avoided or what not you have to eat this no matter what), Regular melee attack (can be severely weaked by various debuffing from -str to -mob skills) and Special Attack (can be completely blocked via stifle and then mob OOP). While Innate Attack + Melee attack is very stable susteined DPS that you can easy offheal, Special Attack (Like Ice Commet that hit on 21400 damage or Crushing Blow/Barrage ect) - that cause "spike" damage. If mob dont have Innate Attack - once mob out of power ... that's it you WON - damage output of mob crippled by 75-90%. Once mob out of power there is no risk for tank and for raid. The faster your raiding force can drain power of mob - the less painfull your victory will be
I believe as it is right now Coercer's are in fact better at stunning than illusionist's....if better = longer duration. I believe i've seen posted that your level 50 AE stun has a 6 second duration, not sure on cast time while an illusionist AE stun has 1 sec cast time but 3 sec duration. Illusionist Long duration single target stun lasts for 9 seconds....Coercer's last for 14 seconds. I don't have either cast time w/ me. I take your point about Charm being useful as CC only if it's more reliable....that makes sense. Charms/Mezzes/Stuns all have the effect of halting DPS from a MoB towards the group of adventurers by stopping the MoB completely from attacking the adventurers. Coercer's wish to use charm primarily as a DPS tool, that's fine i can understand that, could it be used alternatively to halt a MoB from attacking adventures? Yes. Not being able to charm ^^ MoB's ruin's this ability for any CC and consequently it would seem for any form of DPS as well. If you could charm ^^'s; the DPS portion of charming would be viable, and using it as a CC tool would seem more viable. I still have to feel that charm could be considered an extremely offensive form of CC if it were implemented correctly....right now it's not. Not to mention Illusionist's second mezz spell line has a 21 second duration....while Charm right now is 36 seconds right? So if a coercer could charm a ^^ MoB they also have a 15 second longer functioning second mezz line than illusionists......but with more risk attached to the charm, but that's counterbalanced by the potential DPS from the charmed MoB. Regardless, Illusionist's do seem to be geared as the more defensive enchanter, w/ coercer's being the more offensive. I'd like to see both enchanter's DPS looked into; the outcome hopefully being that we both get boosts....yet coercer's end up being more viable for DPS than illusionists.
About stuns - I have several problem with em a) stun not stack with mez because it have mana drain dot attached to it - fix is rather simple let stun drain power upon impact b) casting time on stupefy line of stuns (Bewilder/Perplexity) 4.0 second with actuall duration of stun 6.0 Lvl 50 AE stun indeed god send spell. 3second cast/45second recast and 6 duration have area 15 feets and have ulimited amount of targets to hit. Priceless at initial stage of AE raid encounters Mainsteam line of coercers stun have casting time 1.5 or 2s cannt recall but fast enouth to be usefull in terms of casting under melee damage. Duration 14 second and recast is 60 second Though I want to again emphasis that charm is not CC tool - its coercer primary DPS tool (well I hope it be one day once it will be fixed)
They should change Charm so it works on ^^'s, fix the bug that leaves the ex-pet buffed, then leave it be. That'd be a nice change for coercers, and it would also make them better at it than are troubadors. If they also removed the long recast timer on illusionist pets, those two spells could go a long way toward addressing the DPS problems both subclasses face.
Imo Illusionist pets should not have any recast timer at all or may be limited 1 per per encounter (mob) Speaking about buffs on charmed pet apparently it been stealth fixed - once per broke lose I can recharm it (would not be able if pet keep my mental buffs). What is worst part about charm now is fact that it brake encounter in no-loot mode very often. Fix this no-loot bug and make us charm double up - that would pretty much decent solution
Just some info on Illusionist pet parsing and our proposed change in timers. with the little parsing i've done with a conjuror and myself casting our pseudo pets....i found that; DPS from the illusionist pet and DPS from the Conjuror supplementary pet (fish) are approximately equal. i believe recast timer's for the illusionist pet and the summoner's supplementary pet's are the same My main concern with anything increasing the illusionist pet's viability is that we do not request anything that would.....step on summoner's toes. I would not like to see illusionist's as a pet class. Secondly i do not think that what has been requested steps on summoner's toes. If Illusionist's were granted a better recast time on our pets with the DPS they do currently i do not think we would infringe upon summoner terrirory. In otherwords...I'm all for this proposition as long as out pet's don't interfere w/ summoner's and what they feel is their "turf." I do not feel that this proposition does interfere w/ the summoner's "turf" as our pet's do not do the DPS that a summoner's primary pet would do.
Out of curiosity, who gave Tanatus poor ratings in his last 2 posts? And Tanatus wrote: Imo Illusionist pets should not have any recast timer at all or may be limited 1 per per encounter (mob) Speaking about buffs on charmed pet apparently it been stealth fixed - once per broke lose I can recharm it (would not be able if pet keep my mental buffs). What is worst part about charm now is fact that it brake encounter in no-loot mode very often. Fix this no-loot bug and make us charm double up - that would pretty much decent solution IMO these 2 posts are some of the best i've ever read from Tanatus, did he deserve a poor rating due to previously poor posts? Do those previously poor posts really effect how well presented his information is in these 2 posts? I feel he's giving solid info here.
Sorry but i cannot follow your arguement here. What do you want to point out? What you say here is all fine, but it doesnt make sense as answer to my post. The discussion was about speechless. I was referring to the power drain component of speechless compared to stifle. As speechless dont work on epic encounters why should i talk about raid situation in connection with this spell? It was my experience that in everyday grouping i prefered the stifle trait to speechless. And in my post i tried to explain why. You reply that power drain is important on raids. Cool. I still prefered the stifle trait to speechless in everyday grouping. And both i cannot use on epic encounter.
Zitha my point is noone expect stifle from enchanters - its wizards job (on raiding). Enchanters job is power draining (at it stands now). And ppl were point out that illusionist can afford do anything else during mana drain mode - coercer cannt. You wont be grouping for exp grind at some point of your career and you will start raiding... Once it happend you will realize that power drain >>>> stifle big time. To put blant and simple - raiding caliber mob with power = cusinater, raiding caliber mob without power = panching bag
As for the Illusionist "pet" I would not really call it a pet, but a living DoT. One thing I'd like to see changed on it if nothing else is the fact that it can be resisted. I had this personal experience a couple of days ago, seemed a bit odd to me that something I'm trying to summon to attack my enemy was resisted and prevented from coming into existance to begin with. So for all intents and purposes, it's just a DoT that can be ended sooner by killing it. (also is a pain in the butt with how often it breaks roots.)
That's true, illusionist pets are merely DoT's with a graphic. It *is* strange that they can be resisted, but then, so can Beguile. The pets are part of the flavor of the class, though. I wouldn't mind seeing them become a primary vehicle for addressing our DPS issues. They wouldn't need any behaviour or damage improvements -- they just need to be available more often.
(provided bugs are all fixed: ) To change beguile and make it work on double up without any other changes on the spell would result in heavy inbalance. Message Edited by zitha on 03-22-2005 11:59 PM
The problem with making Charm work on ^^ mobs is that whether you see charm as a CC tool or not, in effect it is. It removes a mob from combat for the duration, just like Mez. It has the added bonus that it turns that mob into a pet which can greatly enhance the groups DPS. On the one hand, this seems like a nice solution since it would offset the second mez of Illusionists by giving Coercers a second from of CC. On the other hand, it would make the coercer grossly more powerful than an illusionist in a CC Role due to the fact that their controlled mob would be dishing out significant damage for the group. It's a tricky situation when you think of all the variables. Does a charmed pet use specials and burn power? If so, then that's a potentially big savings for the coercer using charm to CC a ^^ mob since they'll have that much less power they ened to drain when charm breaks, not to mention that's mega DPS potential. How would that affect named + adds type encounters? i.e. If a named and his adds are all meant to be tough but you can make the named a helper for your group, is that going to make those encounters ridiculously trivial? In an ideal world, I'd say throw it on Test for a couple/few weeks and see how things go, but I think we all know how well SOE pays attention to things thrown on Test... I DO think Charm is a very good starting point to bring up coercers to where they should be, but just wanted to point out that it's not so straightforward as just saying make all mezzable mobs charmable and things will be balanced. Charm is vastly more powerful than any mez by nature. SIDE NOTE: With the changes to AE mez (I've not tested them yet) it's my understanding that Coercers can now AE mez and still cast, but not move, whereas Illusionists are both rooted and stifled for the duration of the AE mez. If this is correct, I would think the CC balance is pretty damned solid now. Illus have 2 single target mezzes which is handy, but being able to cast while AE mez is on is huge IMO and should balance out that second mez illusionists get. Assuming this is the case, I don't really see a need to change Charm to work on ^^ as it would only shift the CC imbalance from Illusionists being vastly superior, to Coercers being vastly superior. Balance is the goal... EDIT: I'm not saying Coercers and Illusionists are balanced overall due to the AE Mez differences. I'm saying that it does go a long way towards balancing our CC abilities though. Message Edited by Sciek on 03-23-2005 06:57 AM
Poeple you fail to understand that Beguile is NOT CC tool its god danm coercer primary DPS tool (or it should be in theory at least). Look I know that some of illusionist spells (DD) have chance to mez right? But I am not saying that your DD spell is CC spell right? Otherwise I'd keep saying that Illusionist have 3 mez (2 classical mez and 1 nuke-mez). Same goes for Beguile it have NOTHING to do with CC.. specially after AE mez for coercer been beefed a lot. For pactical purpose AE mez usefull in very limited occasions basically for raiding several zones and for Nekropolus Castle - The Return aka for encounters that have multiple double up within single pack. Its not work like mez thou - its more like long duration AE stun (because of 20s reuse timer). But none the less Dreadfull Awe are worth casting now with 1s cast and 18s duration it buy a lot a time for what ever it need to be done to take situation under control. I'd say with new changes with AE mez coercer and illusionist are even in CC departement....
Hate these POS boards... had a nice reply that I was working on off and on for the last hour or two and got logged out for no apparent reason so post eaten... Anyway... You can't simply ignore the CC aspect of Charm when asking for it to be changed. Charm does everything mez does and more without one of the main drawbacks of mez, that being the possibility of being inadvertantly broken. Someone mistargetting or using an AE won't break charm, it does break mez. Charm removes the mob from combat just like mez, while also adding the mobs dps to the groups which is much better than mez.... Hence, Charm IS a CC ability. You may or may not use it as such, but the ABILITY to use it as such is there and it's quite powerful. Currently, the benefits of charm are offset by the casting restrictions on ^^ mobs and the recast delay. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be evaluated and tweaked, but I am saying that you can't simply drop the recast on charm to the same as mez and make it work on any mezzable mob, especially in light of the recent changes to AE mez. In your own words: I think we've mostly agreed that both subclasses should be roughly equal in CC ability. Further you and I seem to agree that with the changes to AE mez, there is at least a rough balance in place now. Illus get a second mez, Coercer's can cast while using their AE mez... each offers unique benefits and IMO they are overall fairly balanced. In addition to that, I don't understand why a coercer would want their DPS tied so closely with the ability to charm. I think it's a given that there are going to be areas where charm will not work, just as there are areas where mez is useless. If your DPS is tied closely with charming and one of your core abilities is mezzing, then in those situations where mezzing/charming isn't viable you'd be [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] near worthless. Seems rather counterproductive to me...
