[p]Malloch wrote: [/p] [p]That doesnt really change the fact that we have to pay to do our jobs! Dont pay; dont get to raid cause you cant keep up otherwise[/p][p]And Im not saying im broke. Im not rich by any means, but Im not broke. Ok, how about this. Ill use the same Unrest group for instance:[/p][ul][li]Tank (loots 20 crap items books, bones what not, vendor trash) = 80g for vendor trash - 20g for repairs = 60g total profit[/li][li]Healer 1 (loots 23 crap items books, bones what not, vendor trash) = 92g for vendor trash - 15g for repairs = 82g total profit[/li][li]Healer 2 (loots 24 crap items books, bones what not, vendor trash) = 96g for vendor trash - 15g for repairs = 81g total profit[/li][li]Necro (loots 21 crap items books, bones what not, vendor trash) = 84g for vendor trash - 15g for repairs = 69g total profit[/li][li]Monk (loots 18 crap items books, bones what not, vendor trash) = 72g for vendor trash - 15g for repairs = 57g total profit[/li][li]Ranger (loots 25 crap items books, bones what not, vendor trash) = 100g for vendor trash - 15g for repairs -70g for arrows - 32g for poisons = 17g total LOSS[/li][/ul][p]Maybe its just me...but that doesnt seem right to me...I dont really see how you guys can be so blind to this. And youre right it did use to be WAY worse than this![/p]
I was responding to your statement as you wrote it. I'm sorry, but I can't read minds. You said, "I don't really think its fair for me..." Your post gave no clue that it wasn't self-centric.
[p]Me in relation to the rest of the group. [/p][p]All poison using scouts in relation to the rest of the game population[/p][p][/p]
[p]You switched on me. [/p][p]The original post was regarding groups. In groups you do not have to use GM poisons and top tier arrows. The mobs die in 10-15 seconds and you get maybe 2-3 AA within your CA's. You can top the parse in groups with makeshift arrows and handcrafted poisons (cutting your expenses down quite a bit) depending on which CA's are refreshed due to our burst damage. But in groups you are not expected to be doing raid dps, you are invited because you do good dps in general (and they have an extra spot 8/ ), and probably more importantly in groups is your personality and if you 'know' what your doing. [/p][p]In raids, we do pay more for our dps, i agree. Its quite a bit less now that CA's dont use arrows, but we still pay for ammo whereas no other class pays for the majority of its dps. IF you're in a raiding guild, more than likely you will have a guild alchemist and woodworker that will give you better prices than the broker.[/p][p]The small cost of raiding has not upset me enough to ditch my ranger and roll another class. At the end of the week, i always seem to have more plat than i started with. [/p][p] [/p][p]~mal[/p][p] [/p][p]Edit: heck, in groups i even run in and melee to change the playstyle a little. ( i know im not outparsing the necro when i do this, but its fun to mix it up. Grouping is more about fun than outparsing everyone.)[/p][p]Edit: Ranger (loots 25 crap items books, bones what not, vendor trash) = 100g for vendor trash - 15g for repairs -[strike]70g for arrows[/strike] [I cannot control my vocabulary] arrows - [strike]32g[/strike] 16g for handcrafted poisons = [strike]17g total LOSS [/strike]+69g + legendary BP or Helm?[/p][p]Hey, why is m.a.k.e.s.h.i.f.t considered improper vocabulary?[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]
[p]I do agree there that we arent really expected to do raid dps in groups and we make concessions like you said so we can save money. HOWEVER, what consessions do other classes have to make? Do the wizards switch to their group gear cause theyre not expected to max out their dps? Nope, they put the good stuff on and nuke the crap out of stuff the same exact way and with the same dps patterns as they do in raids. Why are we (poisoning scouts) the only ones who make these concessions. [/p][p]Ive made them before. Use makeshift. Ok, thats fine. Use mastercrafted poisons. Ok, thats fine too. But does the mage use apprentice 2 spells just for groups and use his masters for raids? (i know, not possible) No, they dont. Do tanks dumb their stuff down to ad3 taunts cause theyre cheaper and up the anty just for raids??? Nope[/p]
[p] [/p][p]part of the awesome responsibility of being a ranger. Mobs die so fast in groups, the mages are not doing their 'raid dps' either. Na, i like the mages to use there raid gear, cuz then when they die, it costs them more to repair![/p][p]What is your solution to decrease our costs to zero? but still maintain the economy of the woodworkers and alchemists? Increase 'Bounty' to more than 10s?[/p]
[p]Hmm, tough one. Devs do have it difficult as you say [/p][p]Maybe this wouldnt fix us, but would make us and the mages pay a similar price. [/p][p]They can carry tomes in their range slots. Why not have them use consumables. Pages of the book that are consumed every spell or every DOT hit. Each page instead of doing slash/pierce/crush could do fire/ice/lightning. Or maybe the books could be their autoattack. Consuming a page every AA and decrease their DPS through spells to come in line with ours. And scholars would make the book pages and up their economy.[/p][p]I dont like that solution or even idea cause it nerfs someone else and doesnt fix us in the mean time...so...I dont know lol[/p][p]edit for spelling [/p]
[p]Sorcerors and predators are supposed to do 'similar'/'"tier 1" dps. [/p][p]Could the 'cost' of wearing our chain vs thier cloth be that we have to pay for arrows / poisons for doing same top end dps?[/p][p](although i believe the cloth wearers actually have an advantage on a raid due to increased wis (on cloth gear) which increases their resists over the chain wearing scouts)[/p][p] [/p][p]~Mal[/p]
[p]Malloch wrote: [/p] [p] [/p][p]You answered your own argument with this. This would be indicitave that you stay out of AOE range as much as mages do (not that im any different). So chain vs cloth IMO in that argument is moot.[/p]
Wow Troubadors have been begging for posions for a few years now. Guess I'll spread the word to everyone that its not worth it =-D
[p]In raids Im at 5m-10m... I never melee autoattack. I would love to have cloth resists while sitting at 5m. On mobs that have high AE damage, im back with mages BECAUSE I DONT HAVE THEIR RESISTS 8P [/p][p]In groups I sometimes run in and melee autoattack (AE is pretty meaningless on most group mobs)[/p][p] ~mal[/p]
[p] Buying GM poisons and wasting them on groups (where mobs die so fast anyway), IMO is not worth it. [/p][p]Buying GM poisons for Raids, IS worth it, as 1.7k poison procs help the raid dps as high dps is important. [/p][p]Why would troubs want poison? arent you jsut a buff bot in the back? I didnt think you guys actually swinged at the mobs .[/p][p]~Mal[/p]
[p]I usually switch to Master Caustic + Master Gracelessness for groups. My supplier (guild alchy) has 8 stacks of t6 dusts to use up, so my 'backup' poisons are all Master stuff.[/p][p]As for arrows.... *hugs his Bazkul* I keep 4-6 stacks of field points, but only use those for orange x4 mobs.[/p]
[p] Okay, it seems that I have a lot to answer for so please bear with me while I chain post.[/p][p]First off, I'd like to know more about this wizard. Like Ive said, I personally have never seen a good wizard. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying it isnt possible for a wizzy to parse 3.5k, but Im betting that he gets a pretty stacked group and a lot of proc gear. Most likely he has a troub and an Illy. Which, Oddly enough is pretty much a staple in my group for raids as well. Works out well for the Warlock and I. By the way, what that wizards ZW look like? Its all fine and dandy to spike some nice parses now and then, but that doesnt paint an accurate picture. I've parse over 4k before. Means very little.[/p][p]Do me a favor, poke your head into the rogue forums and tell them they arent a DPS class and they should stick to debuffing. Come back and let me know what they had to say about that. Both our Brigand, and our Swashy are quite capable of ZW parses around 2.5k and often show up on the parse with better then 3k. In fact, our brigand and I feed off each other. Quite a healthy relationship Id say. Yes its true, neither will ever beat me in a ZW they'll still try. I also said that had you included assassins, I would likely agree with you.[/p][p]Oh I did read what you wrote. And it wasnt a flame. It was a simple statement. However, I'll admit, that I did make a mistake. Seems I missed that S on the end of instance. So what I actually read was "for instance" rather then "for instances" and I think you'll agree that it changes the context of the statment, alot.[/p][p]Grats to you for getting Archers Frenzy for 15p... I paid 100p for mine. Ive taken the time to fully master my toon, get those key pieces of gear (mainly my bow) and learned to play my toon. And now you want to say that you'll spend, and do whatever it takes to top the parse, yet again, in the inner box, you say that you cant ever out parse your wizzy? So which is it? Are you topping the parse? Or are you falling by the wayside to that wizard? [/p]
Caelum wrote: Help me out here. When you say you parse within range of fabled rangers and wizzys, how close is that range? Again, I'll like to see something a bit more solid then conjecture. Parses are always good, zone wides are always better. But it still comes down to simple basic things. Like skill (which I always say shouldnt be a big deal.. its pretty easy to learn any class in this game), gear, CA/Spells and buffs. The main reason that you cant out parse that wizard in your group comes down to your CAs and your Bow. Fully master out, and if possible, upgrade your bow. Yes I know, both of these can seem like a major pain in the butt, but we do whatever we can to improve. Every little bit helps. Another question for you. What type of Tank was it? Please tell me it was a Guardian. I dont know how many of you are aware of this, but Guards have this nice nifty CA at level 58 called Tower of Stone. I'll highlite the important part of the description for ya. Think about that then next time you clear a raid zone wiithout dying. You might not have a repair bill, but your guardian will. "Allows the guardian to use a tower shield to absorb all damage they would have otherwise received if the damage was greater than 10% of their total health for up to 3 hits. Each time this effect is triggered, the shield suffers damage. Upgrades to this ability decrease the amount of damage received by the shield" Sure, there are still alot of classes that get off "easy" so to speak in terms of paying for DPS. However I challenge you to find 1 class that wouldnt like the option of paying extra to increase their DPS. There was a troub in here thats already stated that he would love to have access to the use of poisons. Ask a caster if they would pay 4-6g a pop to get an extra 100 procs. Sure they would. But it they did that, it would only set you back further. Heres another good one. Ask a wizzy or a lock how much they'd love to have access to something like Ignorant Bliss. They'd probably have an orgasm on the spot. And thats not even going to deal any extra damage. So yeah, I dont really see the issue. We pay for a part of our dps. We always have. Its nothing new. Are you telling me that you cant sell No-Trade loot? No one in thier life has ever sold a piece of no-trade loot? I hope this isnt your sole arguement as to why the Kithicor BP should sell for less then the shoulders. You would agree that the BP is better then the shoulders woudl you not? So logically, if the BP is better, it should sell for more then the shoulders. Yes, Im aware that different servers have different market prices, but prior to the "smart loot" system, that BP woulda fetched a farily nice price, even if its No-Trade. However, I'll agree that with the new "smarter loot system", the prices on this stuff will bottom out. It'll end up being transmutting fodder. Edit: I always wanted to point out, and Im not sure if it still holds true or not, but I believe that it does. Maybe someone else knows for sure if this still holds true and can correct me if Im wrong. Plate is/used to be, more expensive to repair then Chain. Chain more then Leather, Leather more then Cloth.
Ryilan@Runnyeye wrote: [p] While I understand that not everyone is rich, I also know its not hard to make money in this game either. With transmutting, its only allowed for ppl to sell stuff like adepts for more money then they are really worth. Its alread been pointed out that TT has a few nice spots for farming. Allow me to show you just how easy it is to increase your funds.[/p][p]Again, server prices will probably vary a bit, but Im going to base them off my server.. well... cause I know the prices.[/p][p]Gazer Isle is a great place to farm for extra coin. Sure, theres green agro mobs there, and usually a plat farmer or 5, but if you can get past that, you can make a fortune out there. Each adept 1 you pick up should easily get you 10g a pop. A stack of gazer eye stalks (body drop) 7g per stack. Gazer retinas 7g each (the rare body drop) and of course theres ore everywhere waiting to be mined. Some players are saying that they have been able to grab upwards of 10 rares per hour. Someone in this thread said that rares averaged around 75g. So.. lets say you had a good night and got your 10 rares. Thats 7.5p from rares alone @ 75g. Say you picked up 5 adept 1s. Another 50g. 3 Stacks of eye stalks. 21g. 2 retinas 14g. thats almost what? 9p in an hour? Sure its high, and you probably wont get 9p per hour, but you'll make enough to cover your arrows, and have extra left over.[/p][p]Or, you could go out to fear tainted isle and farm rock and wood out there. Completely unmolested by mobs.. again, you might have to deal with the plat farmer that likes to think of that isle as his, but if you want money bad enough, Im sure you can look past him. Without killing one mob, on a good night where you get those 10 rares in an hour, you just made 7.5p without spending a single copper. Not on arrows, not on poisons, not even on repair bills.[/p][p]I can understand exactly what type of position you're in. I used to carry around about 20p, any more then that, Id find something to spend it on, any less then that, and I had the urge to farm back my plat. However, after awhile, you reach a point where you just dont need to spend money on much of anything anymore. I thought I was done when I got my last master. Then I took up transmutting, doh, guess I wasnt done. However now, I am done. Theres really nothing that would interest me on the broker anymore. Although I do occassionally check the broker for would be cheap brigand masters for my **** brig. Right now, Id much rather stock up my plat so that when RoK launches, I'll be able to buy those new masters.[/p][p]So, aside from having to buy poisons, and repair after a raid (cause I find new and improved ways to get deaded) I dont have much to spend my money on anymore. However, it wasnt always like this. But again, making money in this game isnt hard.[/p]
Nesse@Oasis wrote: Okay, it seems that I have a lot to answer for so please bear with me while I chain post. First off, I'd like to know more about this wizard. Like Ive said, I personally have never seen a good wizard. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying it isnt possible for a wizzy to parse 3.5k, but Im betting that he gets a pretty stacked group and a lot of proc gear. Most likely he has a troub and an Illy. Which, Oddly enough is pretty much a staple in my group for raids as well. Works out well for the Warlock and I. By the way, what that wizards ZW look like? Its all fine and dandy to spike some nice parses now and then, but that doesnt paint an accurate picture. I've parse over 4k before. Means very little. Maybe your server just has rubbish Wizards who aren't good at playing thieir class. That doesn't mean you should go bashing other people because of it. He is kitted out for maximum spell crits and can parse close to 4k depending on group set up. Do me a favor, poke your head into the rogue forums and tell them they arent a DPS class and they should stick to debuffing. Come back and let me know what they had to say about that. Both our Brigand, and our Swashy are quite capable of ZW parses around 2.5k and often show up on the parse with better then 3k. In fact, our brigand and I feed off each other. Quite a healthy relationship Id say. Yes its true, neither will ever beat me in a ZW they'll still try. I also said that had you included assassins, I would likely agree with you. I said that they were debuffers. That doesn't mean they aren't there do DPS. I always parse above Rouges. Predators are the DPS class of Scouts, which is why we got little of anything else. Oh I did read what you wrote. And it wasnt a flame. It was a simple statement. However, I'll admit, that I did make a mistake. Seems I missed that S on the end of instance. So what I actually read was "for instance" rather then "for instances" and I think you'll agree that it changes the context of the statment, alot. Grats to you for getting Archers Frenzy for 15p... I paid 100p for mine. Ive taken the time to fully master my toon, get those key pieces of gear (mainly my bow) and learned to play my toon. And now you want to say that you'll spend, and do whatever it takes to top the parse, yet again, in the inner box, you say that you cant ever out parse your wizzy? So which is it? Are you topping the parse? Or are you falling by the wayside to that wizard? I've spent over 100p getting to the point where am and currently almost fully mastered, I do well in raids. If you paid 100p then maybe your server is just has overpriced M1's. Which isn't my fault either. I raided DT over 25 times before I got Bazkul, I still raid HoS to see Sarnak but it hasn't dropped yet. I can out-parse the Wizard sometimes but since I don't have an 800 damage bow yet or anything close to it. But despite that I still do well in parses and for that I am proud of what I achieve. So again you might to step down from your high-horse and stop looking down on others.
[p]Wow your panties are in a bunch arent they?[/p][p]Where did I bash your wizzy? Im pretty sure I didnt. Becuase I wanted to see what his ZW looked like? Or because I said he was probably be in a stacked group with a troub and an Illy? I mean really, if hes parsing as well as you say he is he should be putting up 3k+ zonewide so I dont see the big deal. But if he spikes 3-4K on one fight then parses 1.4k on the next, well thats a whole nother story. You already said you do occassionally beat him. If your still after Sarnak, then I have to assume you arent raiding with a very good bow. If you arent raiding with a good bow, I'll have to assume you might occassionally break 2k. So, if your occassionally breaking 2k and you occassionally out parse your wizard then where was your wizard on that parse? below 2k?[/p][p]^^^^^^^ the above will be where you tell me that Im wrong, and have no idea what Im talking about.... However, somethings not sitting right with the things you said. So work it all out in that brain of yours and get back to me when you can explain it all away.[/p][p]As far as rogues and preds go, it seems we agree here.[/p][p]Stances arent a very common drop on my server, so yeah, I jumped all over AF when it was being sold. You got yours for a whole lot cheaper then I did. Grats to you. Im not looking down on anyone. Im not sure why you think I am, or why you feel like I just kicked you and your dog. [/p][p]This whole post was stupid from the get go. Really, joking or not, even the thought of charging your group to recoup some coin you might have lost on arrows and poisons is just dumb. Flat out dumb. Then complaining about how a caster can out dps you and not have to spend a single copper? Id bet I could take just about a decked out anything and make a legdendary anything look bad on a parse. So saying that you cant beat a "insert class here" on dps really means nothing until you start looking at the things Ive already mentioned. The player, the gear, spell quality and buffs. Not to mention that every other class would be happy to have the option to have a way to pay to up their dps.[/p][p]Lets just say, for example, there was another ranger in the OPs group. That other ranger was stacked with fabled gear and RSB. Whats the difference if hes losing to a ranger thats not using poisons with RSB & DT ammo, then losing to a wizard? Neither the stacked ranger, or the wizard spent any money to DPS. Thier only costs were for repairs. Does that make it better? Or does that just make it more insulting? A fully geared/mastered, well buffed and well played Assassin, Ranger, Wizard, Warlock, Brigand, Swashy, Necro, Conjy can all do some serious damage. Simply amazing that the 4 DPS scouts we have all have to pay for poisons. How evil it is. Its part of the game, its been this way since launch. Accept it, and go back to playing your ranger, or reroll and play a wizzy or a lock if you want some sick dps without the costs. [/p]
You seem to keep bashing wizzys in general lol. "I've yet to see a good wizard" etc and other comments. Our guild mages all do very good DPS and I am hope it stays that way. I don't care who is on top of the parse as long as we kill the target. The only 2 fabled bow I have are Bazkul and Natures Bow of the Stalker. With and Illusionist I can parse 2.8k depending on debuffs. If the mages don't have Fusion or Apolcalypse up etc then I can out parse them. But not even Rangers have nukes like those lol. Buying GM poisons for raids doesn't bother me. I knew being a Ranger that it was part of our class. It was the choice I made. "Accept it, and go back to playing your ranger, or reroll and play a wizzy or a lock if you want some sick dps without the costs." You seem to make a lot of assumptions about people you don't know. I only play Ranger and I don't have Wizard or Warlock alt. But I do know the DPS that a very well played Wizard can put out in raids Maybe you don't as by your own admission you've need seen a good Wizard lol. To the OP. You won't be out parsing anyone with Raincaller. It's a lvl 57 bow and not really meant for T7 raid zones.
Nesse@Oasis wrote: Thanks for those tips Nesse You are the first who took the time to mention farm spots outside of the norm 'go farm Nest and PP' (and those take time as well, so if time is limited = not much farming in those kind of places) I've been away for 6 months and only back a month, so I'm not really up to date concerning farm spots; I'm glad you mentioned those. Then again, before farming, I've first concentrated my time on doing those signature and deity quests I havn't done...
