Ammo consumption rates are getting ridiculous

Lexicon@Splitpaw wrote:

I suspect you aren't as knowledgeable and/or experienced on these matters as you would like to think.

the expensive/rare arrows should just come with their own "ammo conservation" stat tbh but i'm not against making ammo consume like food, that's actually a rather good idea imo.

Something needs to be done about this. Im not a ranger but its a pain to run out all the time. Its crazy to go throught half a bag of arrows on 1 ranged fight.
I like the idea of arrows that are time based, like totems. They could be unstackable so quivers are still needed and last about 30 mins each. They would auto start the next one in the quiver when the prev one expired. A 32 slot bag would get 16 hours of play. Woodworkers would make just as much cause most would runs these things all the time.

The consumable Quiver is a good idea. TBH though they should just make ammo non consumable, give them some stats. make a spellauto version. woodworkers can make the non consumable piece just like armorers and weaponsmiths, etc... plus you can then add ammo to faction craftable drops, and even add raid/heroic drops witjh adorn spots etc...

I have a 90 ww, but only use it to craft Spirit-Blessed arrows (when we have wood drops). I buy the rest cause I'm just not going to craft 50 combines a day to get 5000+ arrows for raiding. If they were 750/combine instead of 100 I would craft my own. This clearly needs to be addressed at this point in the same way that so many things do where mechanics have changed so drastically to cause imbalance. And there are many ways to deal with it...just pick one. Woodworker is the most pointless crafting class anyway. Just fix the arrow issue (really their only value other than a couple of totems) and combine them with carpenters (or let them pick whatever crafting class they'd like to switch to if not carp).

So instead of a number which seems to sound like a made up number being so high in this context, like 'i used 20 bagillion arrows omg' I'll be more abstract.

I have the largest quiver available in game and started with it full. In one night of raiding, 3.5 hours some of which I sat for, I used more than half of those arrows. Filling a 32 slot bag full of consumables to be used every day should not be part of any class's daily playing routine.

I think if there was going to be an endless quiver introduced IMO, is that it should be a reward from a questline similar to a signature quest and the end reward would be a legendary endless quiver and have an upgradeable fabled version, similar to the epic/mythical weapons questlines just not as time consuming, but the difference being the fabled version would have stats (i.e. +ranged, +accuracy, multi-attack etc.).
The starting NPC could be named Rob Van Huud or something with the lore and everything to go along with it.
IMO that would a nicer reward than another weapon, bow or armor piece from a Signature/Hallmark/Heritage quest.

Lexicon@Splitpaw wrote:

Then you have to ask the flip side of this question: how much is the ranger's DPS advantages worth? Rangers direct compairson is with Assassins. AFAIK Assassins are still marginally ahead of Rangers in the dps game, but there is an advantage of being able to stand at range increasing survivability on most encounters and thus contributing to an increase to the rangers DPS in direct corrispondence to how much more time the Assassin will spend dead.
In general, I don't think it comes to a value rated somewhere in the 5-10p a night range in consumables.
I think the ranger myth buff should be altered to have a reverse normalized proc on ammo conservation. Normal chances would have the ranger consume the ammo from 2 shots per minuite so for casual rangers somewhere between 3-4 arrows per shot, with some of the other posters here in the 6-7 range. This still means that rangers will consume about as many arrows as other classes that use bows, but would close the gap between rangers and other classes that arn't dependent on bows since 99% of the encounters in the game only allow for 1 or 2 ranges shots before the other 9 bow using classes would move to their perfered melee range.
Other than this change...everybody suck it up and make sure you fill your quiver when you empty your bags. More use of consumable items is good for tradeskills, and honestly it isn't like the affected people can't afford to pay a few plat a night.

Meirril wrote:

You are asking the wrong Flip Side question.
How much do CASTERS have to pay to do their DPS each night?
Whats this? They have zero consumables needed?
Hello imbalance!
Frankly, there is ZERO reasons that scouts and fighters should have to PAY to attack from range in the first place. Let alone pay at the rate they do now with all the multi attacks in the game.

Meirril wrote:

As Geothe said, there is no Flip side to the question. Sure rangers can do more dps from range then an assassin.
However the real question is do you know who does more dps from range then a ranger who can't even get close to melee range? The answer to that question are both warlocks and wizards, and I would expect a summoner could achieve more of their effectiveness than a ranger in that situation as well.
People like to focus on the but you can do damage from range standpoint, but they don't understand that with how rangers are actually setup with our CA's, if we can't be positioned where both melee and ranged can be used, we suffer greatly.
It's entirely wrong that the only justification for this is because oh you make tradeskillers more useful. Ok, in that case, let's start forcing casters and priests to pay everytime they cast a spell. Then we can have another tradeskill class make that component so we can bring value to that class instead.

Meirril wrote:

If rangers could be PURE ranged and do top T1 DPS I would never ever complain about the current status of ammo consumption and I would likely even accept even greater consumption rates. But instead in practice I am basically paying for a far reaching 2 handed melee auto attack that doesn't work point-blank. All the dragons in skyshrine will be fun for rangers and pbaoe's. "Sorry guys, because of the hitbox standing at 3 meters and flanking means i'm out of range for groups spells and buffs."
But like others have said, this is beyond a ranger problem, we are just the most heavily impacted. I've gotten more thanks from fighters and the rest of the scouts for bringing up this issue than rangers.

Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:

I'll add my support for this statement. Since troubadors were enhanced (finally) in the past year so we could do excellent ranged DPS combined with MA, most raid nights I go through 2,000 to 4,800 arrows per raid night (2.5 - 4 hr raids) WITH one yellow and one red ammo conservation adorn. I make my own so cost is not a factor, but I have to admit the speed at which I eat up arrows has begun to irk me as well.
I have DT bows (Tarinax/Amorphous Drake dropped) on all my toons and I use only the summoned arrows when not raiding...they still do excellent damage...specifically because I don't have to take the time to make arrows to replace them.
I'm not sure I like the idea of taking the consumable out of the equation entirely (as some of the suggestions propose), unless you made the item involved very hard to get. Perhaps an alternative might be to enhance the effectiveness of the existing ammo conserv adorns so that fewer are required to see marked reduction in usage?

I must add, the point about arrow users being forced to use the consumable vs. non-arrow users is definitely valid and I don't want to present myself as opposing this view. It's just hard to reconcile this with the current reality, where some crafters might be overly impacted by removing it as a factor.

The two options that I think are perfectly reasonable that I like the most are:
1 - Make ammo into 'ammo containers' that work like food/drink. that way consumption is time based not usage based. Ammo crafters still have work and don't have to craft as much. Conservation stats can be made to increase duration of these containers. Convert conservation procs to a constant amount.
2 - Less advantageous for non-rangers but: Make it so ranged weapons do not use ANY ammo when distance from target is 5 meters or less. ALL advantages of 'ranged' attacks are negated at this distance, therefore the 'cost' for being ranged should not apply.
If arrows are left in at all I think crafters should be able to make much more in each combine while increasing resource requirement accordingly no matter what other changes are enacted.

The thing is, crafters aren't making plat off arrows, people with crafting bots are. You go through arrows at a rate faster then you can craft them. It just isn't realistic.

I've met 2 rangers now, that used alt account bot crafters.
While he's in a raid or out killing, he sets his bot up, so he can resupply immediately.
Even see him CoV the ww right outside the dungeon just so he can refill mid raid.

I'm using my monk at the moment, With my ranger i lost so much damage with plain arrows, and it's just no fun having to craft arrows all the time, thats why i stopped playing my ranger altogether. It actually got that bad.

With my monk i use something called a Bag of Broken cogs, got it on my hotbar, quick switch to the bag, summon 99 cogs, switch back to my main pouch. They are about the same as 70s crafted shurikens, not the best, but 99 every 15 mins is fine for a monk.
What about Crafted Quivers that have a predetermined "arrow" on them. Think of it like how poisons get 100 triggers.
What about if i you craft a quiver, that has lets say, 10,000 or 20,000 arrows in it. One of the components would infact me a mottled quiver from a tailor. You could store these quivers in a standard bag, 10 = 100,000-200,000 arrows, and as you use arrows it'll count down on this quiver.
If you pay 5p-10p for one of these quivers, it'll still last you a few raids. Overstuffed Quiver: titanium field point, etc etc
Overstuffed Sack: titanium throwing knives
you get the idea. woodworkers and tailors would profit from them.

slippery wrote:

Bingo.
I fully support ammo consumption to be tweaked, particularly for rangers.
I can hit one button and use 20 arrows. Its a bit insane.

Seriously....DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS.
I started out the raid last night with nearly a full bag of ammo.
Pretty soon after a few pulls of an encounter that has a bunch of adds, I'm getting the pop up saying that I'm out of ammo.
I had to pull out old tier summoned ammo in a pinch. I kept my ammo bag window open, and with every ranged throw that I did, there went 10-15 ammo at a time.
*fling*
-10
*fling*
-15
*fling*
-12
Yeah, there were lots of numbers flying over the heads of the mobs while I was ranged.

All the while, the mages stand back with the healers and just wiggle their fingers to get their DPS numbers...and not get told by a pop up window that they are out of ammo.
Don't tell me to get 5% ammo conservation adorns...mages don't need that...so why should we melee DPSers?
ENDLESS QUIVER/THROWING AMMO BAGS 2012
Yeah, I'm mad.

As a troub, my dps has been cut down by about 20% because I simply can't afford to use my bow as often as I was, even tho I'm also a wood worker. in an average heroic SS run I was going through an easy 1K+ arrows...not hard when you turn on ranged auto and zing out 7-15 every few seconds. As a woodworker...I could care less about an endless quiver, I'd buy/craft/quest for it on all my toons that use ammo. Atan said it best ~you simply cannot craft arrows at anywhere NEAR the rate at which you consume them~not even close to exact quote, but same idea, in a 2 hour raid, I went through almost 6K arrows...and I wanted to cry, because thats going to be really expensive to replace, buying maligonian horns, or take forever to try and get the horns to drop and win them.
PLEASE for the love of all things do something about ammo consumption!!!!!

Atan@Unrest wrote:

QFT
Right now any normal/typical player is penalized with the current way ammo works. From crafters to raiders they are all getting screwed. The only people who benefit are people with crafting bots. People with huge amounts of money and willing to spend it on ammo are just neutral, but again that money is mostly going to 'botters.' Just one ammo botter on a server penalizes every other ammo crafter. One.
At the very least if you made it so players could craft handcrafted in bulk such as 2k at a time like dragon bone, they would be on equal footing with the botters.
I still think consumable quivers that work like food/drink would work very well.