Last raid log i have I am at 132DPS for the whole fight. The guardian who was tanking was at 117dps, the berserker was at 198dps the assasin was at 212 and the wiz was at 218dps. I was in DPS mode. This is just one example, we do fighter level DPS, we do tank level dps. Yes its a bit higher but its not game breaking differences between us. Message Edited by GangsterFist on 03-08-2005 01:02 PM
Actually I see the stances differently. At level twenty-four, I have Brawler's Stance and Lightning Fists. I use Brawler's when going up against heavy melee dps mobs. If I know something is going to be a caster, I switch to the Lightning Fists to try and interuppt their spells more often. I just wish it was easier to switch stances.
thanks gangster - so with that being said- it proves my point - that either we need to be either on par - or out of the question- on ANY side- tanker- fine- dps - fine- but a side needs to be chosen if they wish to take dps down even further than it is at present. and on that note i will say yes- we do need a way to tank on par with heavy armor if we will not be given the dps roll - as gangster illustrated - we arent the best dps - but we can also not tank in the same capacity as a plate without technicalities and gimmicks or a specific build to the grp or raid. PS: its not easier because that wasnt the intention. now i do admit that they thought out our class - but didnt expect the kinks they encountered such as the agility issue which was built around us - but also affected scouts. so they had to work around it which is what they are currently doing - we are a scout/warrior hybrid -- just as sks' and pals are hybrids. where as sk's and pals seem to get the best of both worlds(heavy armor and spells) ... lol = we tend to get the worst of both worlds. (some of thier tanking ability and some of their agility factors like dps) we are meant to be able to fill either roll by our skill sets and abilities - dps mode and tank mode. something no other class has and something we wont have a use for after scouts are put WAY in front of us on average as opposed to just long fights Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-08-2005 01:12 PM
Erm, yeah, Thundering Fists. Hehe. I call 'em lightning fists cause it sends sparks of lighting at the mob. ^.^ Sage, just shut up. I didn't "build" my monk to tank, yet she tanks just fine. I didn't go out specifically looking for the best AGI or STR or STA gear. I just bought what had decent stats that my monk could use and quested for the armor you can get by level twenty-four.
Correct me if I am wrong Gangster, but part of the reason your DPS was so much lower than the Berserker and the Assassin is because raid mobs can't be stunned (and sometimes DOTed?) by our skills. And because of that you get the "Would not take affect" or "Target is too powerful" type messages. The problem is that some of our most damaging attacks have these affects associated with them and this lowers our DPS vs. raid mobs. So, in the end we are neither tanks nor damage dealers vs. raid mobs. Go figure. Surely other fighters have some of the same issues, but for us it pretty much eliminates our usefulness. Why not have another 200+ DPS scout rather than the lackluster 132 DPS monk?
i hate off topic and out of character post - but sniper - please tell me how you got that out of my post? anyone please tell me how you got that out of my post. god please tell me how you got that out of my post.. /cry now we are on the same page again tycho-- /cheer the point i made a week ago is starting to come together. Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-08-2005 01:53 PM
Maybe if you'd word your posts right there wouldn't be any confusion. All most monks want is to be able to tank everything a heavy armor tank can. No we shouldn't be equal in tanking cause our DPS is higher. No our DPS shouldn't be close to scouts/mages cause they can't tank AT ALL and if you disagree then you should re-roll your character before you are grossly disappointed. We are tanks, the head developer said this, so i'd suggest you either get used to it or move on. Gage doesn't want our DPS lowered anymore than the next monk does, but the fact is, it might happen - so if it does we may as well push to be able to tank more in the high end so we aren't left in the dark when it comes time to make a group/raid. *Only read this if you think monks can tank fine in normal groups. I haven't had a problem since the mitigation patch so this has to do more with raids since that is what Gage is talking about anyways. In groups, we can dps and/or tank just fine from my experience. Message Edited by Tully14 on 03-08-2005 04:19 PM
I must respectfully disagree. We are not a scout/warrior hybrid. Paladins and Shadow Knights are not a priest/warrior hybrid. We are all subclasses of the Fighter archetype. Like all classes and subclasses we have a smattering of arts and abilities from other areas for variety and flavor. Like all classes and subclasses we have variations that distinguish us from other classes and subclasses within our archetype.
every one except you knows that as far as skill base- monk = hybrid just as a conjurer can be seen as a warrior/wiz hybrid when looking at thier design. when has a shadowknight not been a hybrid???? when you take some of the core of one class and combine it with another that justifies your class as a hybrid - not a subclass - just a hybrid. class are set up from one extreme to the other with other classes in between that are built in between the two pentacle of defense and damage obsorbtion GUARDIAN (sp) pentacle of damage dealing and damage output WIZARD(sp) dont look at what may one day be - or what its supposed to be - look at your skills of your class right now and today - spells like FD and invisibility are scouting abilities - rescue type spells and subpar taunts - especially for bruisers who get abilities that openly say bodyguard such as mez's and fears - which are not good for MT- but are great for guarding casters and managing adds. i mention these skills exclusively because they are the ones that most openly effect our ability to tank and define our roll in grp. LOL _ I SPELLED IT LIKE IT SOUNDS LOL!!! Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-08-2005 03:43 PM
Um two fighter classes have FD and all the mages get invisibility. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-08-2005 02:54 PM
ok gage would you rather they call your invis, sneak? im sure that wont be hard to change while they are changing spell names - and shadowknights get feign death - and they can also FD others in the grp if aggro gets on them - which i dont know - but would honestly say thats more useful than ours either way - scouting ability or not oh yeah - and swashbucklers get it too...
Our Invis is power based, useless past 40, and only lasts as long as you have power. Scouts is 12 hours, gets upgraded numerous times, has attacks tied to it, and is useful at 50.
No. I wouldn't. Why? Not because I think that we shouldn't tank raids, we should. I disagree because the option that you suggest does not address the problem in a specific way. Why should monks take a hit in their abilities from lvl 1 to lvl 50 so that they can tank raid mobs at the end of the run? Is the problem that we lack tanking power even for non-raid mobs? I think so, light armor enhancement did help, but we still get whacked silly by even-yellow-orange and red con mobs because deflection does not scale as well as mitigation does, hence the sharp edge that plate classes have over us. What I would suggest is an enhancement to deflection across the board for monks/bruisers via stances or self buffs (this has been suggested ad nauseum already because it is a very sensible option) Spiders stance should provide better tanking and winding dragon should grant higher dmg, while both greatly reducing offense and defense respectively. Simply reducing dps overall for an increase in tanking will not solve the woes of the monk class. What can we offer to a group compared to other tanks? Here is a list of pros and cons: Cons: Light armor + can't benefit from large shields Less HP Deflection limited to 120 degree range Two group buffs (call to arms line and staggering line, this latter one affects only two people, so to call it a full-fledged "group" buff is a long stretch) Two taunts, one single, one group (rescue doesn't seem to work, otherwise it would be three "taunts") Group taunt has a very long reuse timer. Pros: Deflection works very well with lower lvl mobs: healers can just nuke and forget about healing. High dps compared to guardians and pallys, Sks trail closely and berserkers appear to have an edge over us in some ocassions. Mend: a little help in strained fights, but nothing that will usually save or break the encounter. Intervene... doubtful plus, considering the low hp and light armor, though can be useful. Feign Death line. Groovy, FD and rez the healer,,, if evac hasn't gone off by that time. Again, can be useful but it rarely comes to that. Wind Walk. Some uses for scouting purposes for the group, useless past lvl 40. Mediocre group usage. That is it, that's the grand list of bonuses,,, rather un-impressive if you ask me. A guardian can look up to having great dmg mitigation 360 degrees around them, to stick mobs like there is no tomorrow with powerful taunts and a few group buffs, to a larger hp pool and to a wide variety in weapon/shield combinations. Yes, they can't do FD or windwalk or mend or as much dps as monks can. This is not a problem, because their group role is cemented, it is solid. Scouts? Their great utility and dps make up for their lack of tanking. They still need to have their dmg raised to get them closer to wizzies/warlocks but nobody would dispute that they are wonderful additions to a group. If you already have an MT in group, why bring a monk when you can fill the spot with much better options? The solution is not to cripple dps to enhance tanking. We SHOULD be better tanks than what we are at present, without having to sacrifice anything for it. Since we lack group utility we should, in my opinion, be granted diversity when in combat: the possibility to act well in both tanking and dps roles, without threatening the superior performance of classes at each extreme of the equation. Peace
Not quite sure what you were trying to say there. . . Guardians are the '5 pointed stars' of defense? and wizards are the '5 pointed stars' of damage? penultimate? maybe ...na that means 'next to last' ..that's what monks are in terms for tanking within the fighter hierarchy, I dont think you can apply that term to guardians unless you are talking about fighter dps? pinnacle? the top ....oh that's it, nm I answered my own question in this reply ...ignore me :smileywink:
thanks Yama - great - better yet awesome post - its great that alot of people are rearing their heads that truly understand the parity of the issue at hand - that there needs to be an almost cemented spot for all classes - given that we understand the extremes being guardians and wizards on opposite sides of defence and damage - we dont want to be the holy grail- but we also dont wanna be - the holy spit bucket either. which players like sniper and a few others fail to see - this goes beyond a debate over dps or tanking - currently we have flexibility - that most want to retain and wouldnt give up to compete with guardians for 1000000x reasons. but all that has been said before - and the issues are on the table - now SOE - needs to give some insight on the direction of our class. and a blanket statement that they are ***evaluating melee damage so that scouts outdamage fighters.... isnt very indicative- so if this happens and they dont adjust anything about our class - then gage you both dont go to raid for dps -= and you also dont go to raid for tanking. so the players of the monk/bruiser classes need to form a compromise and come together to achieve the goal of a position at all -...
Can you QUIT putting words in my mouth. WTH do you think I've been trying to do. I even said THEY MIGHT NOT CHANGE OUR DPS AT ALL, AND RAISE SCOUTS. Regardless, when that happens scouts = more wanted for DPS slots. We need to concentrate on getting our tanking ability balanced.
