A question to my fellow monks.

Discussion in 'Monk' started by ARCHIVED-Gaige, Mar 3, 2005.

  1. ARCHIVED-Craaq Guest

    I'll agree with sage on this point.

    I don't know how it is for the rest of you monks out there, but when I put my LFG tag up I'm not getting inundated with tells. And when I finally do get a group, I don't insist I be MT and go out and prove that I can, I don't have time to change the world. If they ask me to be DPS, I do that, if I get asked to MT I do that. It's not like I'm getting so many requests that I can pick and choose. I don't have a set group I xp with and I have a 3-4 hours I can play per night so I can't be picky. Overall I get more requests as DPS, I'd say 75% of the time.

    If they nerf our DPS or up the scout DPS, I'll probably get less tells when I put my LFG tag. In reality though when people are forming groups there is not 20 of the same level range all LFG'ing anyways. It's usually put together at least 1 tank, 1 healer and whoever else fits within the level range ....and it's usually still hard to form groups that way.
  2. ARCHIVED-SageMarrow Guest

    Guardian Shouting Cry protection 22.61 40Increases hate towards the guardian and lowers the damage of all enemies in an encounter.
    GuardianTaunting Challenge protection 24.6 18 0Reduces damage slightly while increasing hate with each hit.
    Guardian Dig Inprotection 30.6 41 Sacrifices offense and slows the movement of the guardian to greatly increase the defense and mitigation of the guardian.
    GuardianSuppressprotection 31 31 Increases hate towards the guardian and slows the attack frequency of the enemy.
    Guardian Deafenprotection 45 39 Increases the hate towards the guardian, slows the attack frequency, and deals power damage to the enemy.
    Guardian Protect protection 50 50 Greatly increases hate towards the guardian from all enemies in an encounter.
    GuardianGuardian Sphereprotection 50 125 Allows the guardian to sometimes absorb damage dealt to the group.
    Berserker Enrage berserk 22.6 14 Increases hate towards the berserker and grants the berserker a chance to go berserk.
    Berserker Sunder berserk 23 14 Increases hate towards the berserker and deals a knockdown to all enemies in an encounter.
    Okay now i could go on for days... they have overtly better taunts and taunts built in to attacks -- we get 2 grp taunts max - all of which are at lower levels(lvl 20ish). beserkers have MANY more, we would have to be at max dmg output as well as spam everything we have to achieve one casting of the guardians PROTECT spell. at level 50. now ironically enough = EVERY GRP BUFF we have takes at least 80pwr - AT LEAST 80. which is less than the gaurdian uses at level 50--- !!!!!!!!!!!!
    so in what respect does it make sense to take a tank that uses MORE power takes MORE damage and consequently take more pwer to heal - and consequently equals more down time after ANY mob with decently high HP
    not tryin to be an butt about this - but i knew this long time ago - before i ever went to post about this argument familyman, so when i say -
    why take the gnome with the wood chopping axe to the mines to mine- when theres an ogre standing behind him with a MINING PICK!????????????!!!!
    = which also can be understood as - why take something inadequatly built and prepared for a given job - when something bigger and better is already there. no one says that we cant - no one says that we dont - with a good healer - even a scout can tank for the most part - about as reliably as we did in between agility patch and mitigation patch. there arent any big disparities here. if a scout gets the jump on a single white or yellow ^^ mob- and hit him with a good one - he will be locked in for probably the entire fight without having to spam a thing as far as combat arts...
    stop making this more complex than it is - the method to the madnes is that we need a spot = tanking would require the same things that the other tanks have - mitigation and aggro control at high levels without the complex strain that it causes as of now. which in turn would require a total gutting of the class
    family man= they cannot fix deflection without fixing it for guardians to which would make them tank just as good - deflection is our equivalent of thier blocking ability with a shield. we are NOT twinked by individual class... we are twinked across the board any time something such as blocks and misses are concerened - any class with blocks and misses or of the sort will be affected by the change- meaning EVERY WARRIOR.

    Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-09-2005 12:37 PM
  3. ARCHIVED-Crunion Guest

    Question to Gage and any other monk that wishes to answer :


    What "healing method" do you use while tanking?

    Do you agree that being an avoidance tank the monk should not mitigate damage and should rely on deflection and wards instead of instant heals and mitigation.

    So in answer to the posted question : yes take away my DPS/mitigation and make me a better avoidance tank like i should be
  4. ARCHIVED-SageMarrow Guest

  5. ARCHIVED-RadricTycho Guest

    While I agree with most of your post, in that the warrior subclasses are kings of aggro control, this statement I do not agree with at all.

    We are the only class that has deflection. No one is sure exactly how it works, the only things we know about deflection are:
    • It has a 120 degree arc of protection directly in front of us
    • Only brawlers and subclasses of brawler get it
    • It seems to increase our block rate
    • as a sub-class of brawler we have a built-in round shield
    Beyond that nothing is proven. And since no other class gets a deflection skill, I think it is pretty straightforward to say that it would be possible to make that skill work any way they want it to work without affecting the warrior sub-class. Furthermore, they do make class specific tweaks. They have made this clear time after time as they changed things, like: adding a round shield to all brawler sub-classes for example.
    The problem we have is not whether or not they can balance us relative to the plate tanks, but IF they will balance us relative to plate tanks. So far the developers have been loathe to even admit there are balance problems between our classes. The only way that we see any acknowledgments of the issues at all are in changes like increasing light armor mitigation.
    The developers can fix brawlers. They just seem to be playing the role of Melville's Bartleby the Scrivener: "I would prefer not to."
  6. ARCHIVED-SageMarrow Guest

    while none of us know exactly!! what the situation is to deflection -

    it is safe to infer or assume that - yes - the situation is that deflection and block are tied - when a guardian does not get hit - usually its a block. which would be assumed to be the equivalent of our same deflection skill which is labeled as a Block.

    which is how i drew my "generalization" - as far as the arche is concerned - i understand about the 120 deg. thing - but that would only help us equal a guardians damage soaking ability from all sides - not just whats infront of him.

    yes we MAY - handle mobs behind us better being able to block and parry mobs behind us - but the problem will still remain at the level of - when we get 4 bad rolls from 6 mobs...

    thereby making it still an unreliable tool - its as if you have to hold together a spot between the hammer and the wooden hilt so that you can hammer a nail - making it still unreliable in essence. if you drop the hilt - you dont hit the nail with the proper amount of power (aka heavy healing required) - if you drop the hammer - you bang your hand on the nail and bleed all over the place lol (grp wipe)

    so the issue is taking out the randomization persay - which is the point i was tryin to make - sorry if i wasnt clear
    Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-09-2005 01:06 PM
  7. ARCHIVED-SageMarrow Guest

    and if anyone can say that they have seen the effects of this mystical round sheild they shoved up our buts then let me know lol-

    honestly i thought that was just in essence to achieve a block skill proc when taking damage at all- deflection was just the tuner outside of having the actual shield itself...
  8. ARCHIVED-Kharza Xorlarrin Guest


    You know these are very good questions..

    When I started my monk and tanking I thought I'm an avoidance tank.. I belong with a shaman based healing class. I did this through my twenties until I met the best [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] healer I've seen so far in this game.. she happened to be an inquis. She just knew how to heal me.. she knew when I would spike and be rdy.. she would preload me before I even thought about asking her to do it. Alas.. she has vanished from EQ2 and I'm stuck searching for another regular healer to fill some very big shoes. Since then I've started grouping with both a shaman and templar (happen to be husband and wife so it works out well). When those 2 are on.. I don't even lose health.. I might lose a spec of my health but if I get below 50% health it is because I screwed something up or we are in a marathon fight with 2-3 waves of adds.

    I didn't play a monk to strap on 100 tons of armor.. I played him to be a light quick fast fighter that dodges attacks, strikes back with carnage and basically lives on the edge. That is what drew me to the EQ1 version of a monk. The danger and "edge" of FD pulling.. the constant concentration and adreline rush doing something insane and crazy. I still get that feeling with my EQ2 monk, but not near the level I did in EQ1. Don't get me wrong I love my position in EQ2.. I love controlling the ebb and flow of the battle. Keep control, maintaining aggro whether through taunts or dmg dealt, making your group feel safe, secure and having fun that is the definition of a tank. We all had to learn and adapt when the agi nerf came out. I for one was glad.. it forced me to become a better tank. The skill decriptions where another tool that allowed me to get better and better. I'm not at the stage of raiding.. I plan to be so I am speaking from inexperience. I do believe there is a configuration in which monks can excel at tanking raid mobs. Whether through the knowledge of the other people in the grouping understanding how we work, whether it is through the group/buff configuration there is a way to succeed we just need to find it. I like that Gangsta is going to try.. I encourage his guildmates to let him try.. I encourage everyone else raid level to provide thoughts and insights. I for one am not convinced we as monks can't do it. We lead by example, we will always have the naysayers that say we can't do it. We will also have the group members that have passed through the monk lead MT groups that know the truth, we will have the supporters that we have earned through our abilities at doing the things required as tanks.

    So for god sakes lets do something practical and worthwhile with the posts. We unified as a monk community to explain the affects of the agility nerf. We are gathering great data on the effects of deflection, we are posting tanking strategies and skill combos to make ourselves effective. The community has fostered this.. lets just take this as another hurdle we face as a community and work to find out if there really is a problem or just another in the long list of things we must find new strategies to overcome.

    *gets down off soap box*

    Hi my name is Kharza, I'm a lvl 37 Monk from the Mistmoore server and I am proud to be a TANK!
  9. ARCHIVED-RadricTycho Guest

    My point is sage, that if tomorrow they decide that deflection will be recoded to be a pure percentage chance to avoid all attacks, then they can do that. Because it is a separate skill, they can do whatever they want to do with it. Today it may be tied to block, but for all we know its some sort of multiplier for, or possibly an addition to our built-in shield. Which means that if they tune deflection, it would in no way impact the amount that any other class blocks with their shields.

    However, the 360 degree extension of deflection would require some recoding I think. Probably they would have to make deflection a separate chance to avoid an attack rather than linking it to block. Either that or they would have to tie the extra chance to avoid into our defense skill which is 360 degree avoidance protection.
    Message Edited by RadricTycho on 03-09-2005 04:19 PM
  10. ARCHIVED-SageMarrow Guest

    despite the fact that i poked fun at you on the other post i agree - that we need to find one solution and stick with it - and personally - we know which one is right - which would be to keep the versatility - and add utility - as to fully fulfill the bodyguard - 2nd tank roll that many of us do today.

    there are just a few dissenters lol who want us to be all out tankers - as long as im given a decent playing experience and grpability within my class of choice i am happy without question. its just the limboing act that they put us through - first at the expence of scouts - and now again - at the mercy of scouts.

    not yelling nerf at scouts - but in balancing them - they nerf us, which is unsaid fact-

    thanks for the post!!

    my solution tycho would be to add more ways to block attacks beyond the ones we have now - one for behind the front and the sides - which would give us an extra one for the front to balance there - and individual ones if they get in those areas in question.

    and i also want to run along walls and do backflips and be able to jump higher than other classes@!!!@E#@# _(haha)
    Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-09-2005 01:27 PM
  11. ARCHIVED-MoonglumHMV Guest

    You shouldn't call SOE "dissenters"....;)
  12. ARCHIVED-GangsterFist Guest

    So then let me ask the monk community what they think the monks strengths are?

    Should we be the best at avoiding attacks? Currently a guardian with a tower shield with an sr of 800 or more avoids damage just as good if not better than us.

    Should we be the highest DPS on the fighter tree? No, bruisers should be, we are defensive tanks and are on the defensive tree. However, we should out DPS most other fighters because we are also brawlers. However, berserkers out DPS me on a regular basis, even when they are tanking.

    Is our DPS comparable to a scout? Nope not at all. Scouts sometimes double my DPS now in raids.

    Is our dps compareable to a mage? Nope, we shouldn't and we don't.

    So you max out your level which everyone wll max out at one time or another inbetween expansions. So, really the only thing left to do is raid. What is your role going to be? Do you feel you should just hit auto attack and go afk? Because, basically thats what I do and every now and then come back to move my toon and reposition him. Thats how boring my play time is. I don't have to concentrate on antyhing. I don't have to be at my computer. I just auto attack. I have done raid content in windowed mode and read www.fark.com b/c I got bored once doing vaz in feerrott. If thats what you guys want then let me cancel my account now.

    I played both a troll warrior and a human monk in EQ 1. Both of them level 60+. Both of them high end gear and raid worthy. I liked playing my monk better and liked being a main tank at the same time. I even two boxed them occasionally on raids. I was really hoping I could combine them both in EQ 2 since its based off the archetype system and so many DEVs and PR people posted that this game is NOTHING like EQ 1. That is was infact a complete different game and that all the stigmas that came with EQ 1 will not show up in EQ 2. Which honestly I am finding more and more that is not true.

    So, let me ask the community this. What is the PRIMARY role of a monk?
  13. ARCHIVED-RadricTycho Guest

    Frankly, I'd rather be a tank.

    I came from Star Wars:Galaxies before EQ2. I never played EQ1 so I had no preconceptions about the classes. In SWG the real tanks were the Teras Kasi Artists sort of like a monk really. When I started my first character in EQ2 I wanted to play a tank. I liked being up close and absorbing the damage while dishing it out too. Standing off in the distance with a T21 rifle in SWG just wasn't as exciting to me.

    So, bearing in mind that in SWG the fencers and the Teras Kasi were the guys who dodged and avoided damage, and in general were tough as nails, I chose a monk. I figured that avoidance would be a key to success in this game just like it was in SWG. Boy was I wrong. Apparently along with EQ2 came a tremendous amount of baggage that said that heavy armor was the only way to be a tank.

    In SWG everyone could wear heavy armor, so it never dawned on me that I would be putting myself at a disadvantage by taking a monk. It wasn't until I got to level 20 that I realized I would never get to wear decent armor. So now, maybe I made a poor class choice given my preferences, and maybe I should have realized the error of my ways early on and switched to a Guardian, but heck there are just TOO MANY plate tanks out there. I figured eventually the Monks would be equal to those guys once the game matured a little. Why would SOE want a bunch of cookie-cutter warriors when they had such diversity in the skill sets and styles of the various fighters?

    It honestly never occured to me that there might be people out there who felt that they should be worse at tanking than a Guardian or Berserker. Even today I am astounded at such a sentiment, and I feel it must be some lingering feelings about the EQ1 heritage that keeps that sentiment alive. In my mind there is absolutely no reason why monks and bruisers shouldn't be as good a tank as a Guardian, as good just different. And, I have a hard time seeing this any other way, especially since that is what I thought was the case from the early marketing literature, and even the class quests, about Brawlers and Monks.

    I will continue to support the notion that Monks and Bruisers should be viable tanks for all phases of the game. I didn't take what I considered to be a tough-as-nails fighter class just to be relegated to the back ranks with the gown wearing mages.
  14. ARCHIVED-Gaige Guest

    Singler healer groups I actually prefer wardens. Mystics are good though. Templars would be last on my list, but I was mentoring with a 32 templar in my guild last night taking out 35+ and 30++ no problem.
  15. ARCHIVED-FamilyManFirst Guest

    Monk Hand Clap 22.6 Increases hate towards the monk and interrupts all enemies in an encounter.

    Monk Grappling Bear 24.6 A lower damage attack that interrupts the enemy.
    Monk Rescue 25 (no official description due to a bug in the offical Combat Art list) Increases a Monk's hate position on the mob by 1

    Monk Sweeping Crane 30.6 Sacrifices offense for increased defense and skill in tranquility.

    Monk Silent Threat 31 Increases hate towards the monk. This ability can be used while stifled.

    Monk Infuriating Calm 45 Increases hate towards the monk, can be used while stifled, and lowers enemy damage.

    Monk Agitate Spirit 50 Increases hate towards the monk and deals power damage to all enemies in an encounter.

    Monk Silent Fist 50 A high damage attack, it silences the target for a short time.

    Now, not all of my rebuttals are exact matches. I've already said that Monks get fewer taunts in exchange for higher DPS to manage aggro. However, most of the examples you gave have direct counterparts in the Monk line of Combat Arts.

    Excuse me? We get Hand Clap at 22.6, Focus Energy at 36, and Agitate Spirit at 50 (and, of course, the ubiquitous Shout at 8), all of which are group taunts. We get Taunting Slap at 17.6, Silent Threat at 31, and Infuriating Calm at 45 (and, of course, the ubiquitous Taunt at 3), all of which are single-target taunts. What we don't get (and even Berserkers don't get the whole line) is the Taunting Blow line of Combat Arts that Guardians get (Taunting Blow, Taunting Challenge, Vengeful Strike, and Taunting Assault) but we make up for it with DPS Combat Arts.

    Berserkers have similar taunts to Guardians. They actually have a couple fewer taunt-based Combat Arts but their Berserk aggro creation more than compensates.

    You clearly haven't looked at Agitate Spirit, the Monk's AOE Taunt at level 50.

    ... and your point is? The Guardian's Protect Combat art costs 64 Power, the Monk's Agitate Spirit costs 75 and drains all mobs' Power as well. I don't see that as a huge difference.

    Regarding the rest of your post:

    1) Despite your misunderstanding, Monks are built for tanking.

    2) Monks have a spot in groups: as the Tank. Monks have the same things that other tanks have, including reduced damage through avoidance and aggro control through taunts and DPS. Therefore, no "gutting" is necessary.

    3) They can easily fix our deflection without touching plate tanks'. All it takes is a simple adjustment to our Deflection skill, which plate tanks don't have. Whether or not it's our equivalent of plate tanks' shields it is completely independent of them.

    I await your rebuttal.


    Edited for layout and a tad more content.
    Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on 03-09-2005 03:03 PM
    Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on 03-09-2005 03:19 PM
  16. ARCHIVED-SageMarrow Guest

    block is a block - no matter how you come by it -

    im not sure if you are current with graphics engines - and creating characters - etc - but i assure you - our skills are tied to our defence skill directly - first and foremost - then deflection is just the label on our block skill.

    when you force a missed attack and the numbers go your way in a fight - it comes up as a block

    when they do the same thing with thier shields it too comes up as a --block --

    this isnt coincidence - look at the games structure - in everquest one - only certain races could be certain classes - which allowed them to work with races and classes individually.

    now the case is that your race is basically a skin for your character - you no longer CHOOSE out of a bank of skill points where you want what to go- they are set in stone for YOU. which means - you are not individually twinked on any level - certain classes have certain abilities which are given on the ARCHETYPE level - not on the class level.

    they built us into the archetype system which would explain alot of issues- as i said earlier - each team/developer has a job in coding - to make things easier - they are given sections of the game to concentrate on and made the game less complex on an individual class level so that they could expand the game horizontally - in content and skills given to your class to do your job - not to make one class better than the other on down the line - we are all supposed to be equal but different - which would explain why we have skills that only upgrade themselves to adapt to the content- not 50 totally seperate spells and arts so that U may guide your play experience. (which im not fond of - but hey - thats not whats in question)

    so that explains the deflection thing - thats what the shield in our butts was given to us for - so that we could proc a block as a missed attack. if you think back - we could originally equip bucklers onto our character itself. they took that away and made it built in instead. and used deflection as the modifier for the block - basically being our equivalent of the AC attatched to a regular plate tanks shield.-

    about the abilities - yes they are geared towards single targets - and have no effect if blocked parried or riposted or even missed. thats 4 different ways for your attack to fail as opposed to a taunt being resisted that happens VERY seldom. so IMO - damaging attacks will never take the place of an outright hate boosting spell that directly effects the mobs hate score with the caster as opposed to an attack that we know acrues hate - because we have all started a fight off with 2 parries and a riposte on our 3 best skills that we hit mobs with to try and lock them in as far as aggro - then the mob runs after the wizard who just blew its head off- its happened to SK's and Pal's as well - because they dont specifically have as many HATE building skills.
    Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-09-2005 07:31 PM
    Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-09-2005 07:35 PM
  17. ARCHIVED-SniperKitty Guest

    "because we have all started a fight off with 2 parries and a riposte on our 3 best skills that we hit mobs with to try and lock them in as far as aggro - then the mob runs after the wizard who just blew its head off- its happened to SK's and Pal's as well - because they dont specifically have as many HATE building skills." - sage

    If that's happening to you, you're not starting the fight off right. Every fight I get into that I can prepare for, I start off with Focused Strike followed up immediately by my AE taunt. I never lose aggro on the pull that way. You just don't know how to play a brawler type properly, Sage. Now get out of the monk forums and go back to the Bruiser forums where you belong.
  18. ARCHIVED-Ilina Guest

    Why are you still posting?

    Everytime someone says something contuary to what you've experienced, you accuse them of being a moron, or someone that doesn't know how to play their class.

    It's subjective. That's the problem. And holy cow, if I haven't lost aggro in my parties when I tank when some Wizard or Warlock starts dishing out 600 point nukes. Holy cow. It happened the other night. That's *with* spamming both of my adept taunts, and my adept buff. It happens. Especially after that damage increase.

    -Ilina Moon
    38 Monkie
    Antonia Bayle
  19. ARCHIVED-SageMarrow Guest

    thanks llina... what tank doesnt start a fight with taunts - and thats if he doesnt taunt pull - i thought that was understood... gotta spell everything out verbatim. but then again you are only level 24 on your monk...

    irony. :smileyindifferent: , who has had to jump on EVERY caster in GRP for casting buffs during a pull? - every caster i know had to learn that the hard way. and it needs to be said even at level 45+.given that its easily overlooked. you dont buff during fights at all- every tank who enjoys and studies his job will say it at least once through a dungeon crawl - just as consistent as it is common knowledge.
    Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-09-2005 08:43 PM
  20. ARCHIVED-SniperKitty Guest

    I keep posting because that moron that plays a Bruiser keeps posting. Sage just won't shut up and it's painful to try and read that mangled mess he types. In my experience, if I lose aggro on the pull, it's because someone was buffing the group. That happens once. After that fight is over, I lay it down very clearly that buffing should only be done after a fight, not during a pull. If they do it again, they get booted from the group if I'm the leader.

    You may think it's harsh. You may think it doesn't earn me friends, but oh well. It makes grouping much more enjoyable because I'm not spending each and every fight teaching the jackhole morons how to play their class properly. In the end, it does earn my friends because the other people in the group see how effective I am at a tank and that I don't tolerate idiots that only earn groups more debt than xp.