First off getting stabbed in your kidney would be fatal, and much more damaging than getting your face smashed. I don't why some people don't get that the central nerve system runs down your spine and if you sever any one of those nerves you can cause permanent damage and paralysis. Trust me, you never want to fight anyone with your back to them. Their group sneak is slow moving and not as good as an enchanters or a fury however, they can stealth a whole raid party, which no other class can do. To the subject at hand this game is just becoming one whole clone of EQ 1, and I am steadily losing interest in this game. I don't really see it being fixed anytime soon. SOE takes forever to make a well balanced game. I for one am not to keen for paying their subscription fee and having it be like a paid beta. Then again thats just my opinion and I am sure some people are okay with paying for it. They need to do something fast to fix it or they will probably be losing a lot of people to different games that actually come through with what they promise.
okay gage but what or who do you know that has organized a raid built around a monk tanking ? several wardens for ward chains - 1 templar for alternate heals - an enchanter illusionist combo for enhanced mana regen so we can keep our taunt chains going - replace the guadian with more dps classes and a beserker for buffs and off tanking - to try and equate a more balanced raid for a monk specifically - inclined to higher damage and speed moreso than the steady progression fight of a guardian balanced raid... and about the above posters agument with the issue of what makes sense to him, unfortunately it makes sense to everyone else but some dont wanna say it cause they took the description of the archeype classes really seriously upon release which isnt thier fault but more so soe's for not including more information on classes their roles in grps on down the line as far as soloability etc - some have taken the archtype system and used it to fuel a mess that soe made when it should have been an open statement that you play the class that you want to play and that the game will be built around balance but not balanced into oblivion with the present direction- a tank is a tank a caster a caster and a healer a healer - there is no indvidual feel to the classes or something that truly sets them aside that some other class/ both in and out of archetype cant do. swashbucklers can feign death- just like a shadow knight can feign death himself or other grp members which in my opinion is better than the one we got at our disposal but either way - that does make for a very drab gaming environment when most peoples pride and joy is not thier trade skilling items or thier questing tags for killing 10000 fairies - its their main adventuring character, so if the game is supposed to reach lvl 200 then i hope the classes go thier own direction without this balance beyond balance stigma cause just as many monks dont wanna be tanks - many gaurdians dont want monks to be tanks - just like wizards dont like enchanters cause they slow down fights - so yeah they need to give classes all something usefull and unique as far as ability that makes them unique - and yes scouts are the pentacle of utility on EVERY LEVEl - they get the best abilities the earliest that also get upgraded the most frequently. alongside their massive and soon to be untouchable dps - its just no contest Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-07-2005 03:34 PM
This is how I did my raid when I main tanked with my 50 monk MT group was me, lvl 50 bruiser, 50 templar, 50 warden, 50 troub, 50 mystic I had almost 400 in each stat thanks to all the buff stacking. In my off groups I had 1 templar 1 inquis (both level 50) and 2 level 45+ furys. Vaz proceeded to destroy me after I got his HP maybe 1/2 bub down. He was missing me, and I was doing okay and barely going out of health. However, even when his power is drained he can hit me for almost 5k damage. I had about 10.1k HP totally buffed out, every healer on me. I honestly probably could have taken him down, but it probably would have taken a few tries to work out the bugs and it would have been close. He killed me b/c he got a combo off for 4.8k dmg, 4.6k dmg, riposte 3.3k dmg = monk dead. The problem is no one wants to sit through a raid and try out new things when guardians can just do it like its a no brainer. our berserker tanked him after that no problem and she barely got hit all that much. A few times her HP dropped into the yello but never below yellow status.
I know. This is my point. Puncturing something in the Kidney over and over is of course going to hurt more than being smacked in the face with a spiked tamborine. My point was, Scouts can't puncture you in the kidney every second. At least, not in this game, they can't. Meh. I'm honestly getting tired of the discussion, at this point. Gage seemed to hit it right on the head, we seem to be split in half. Myself, I don't care if they put us all the way over to DPS, or all the way to Tank, I just wish *one* of them would happen. Another interesting quote today. My group had to evac a couple of times in Runnyeye due to some bad pulls/repops. Wizard says, "Whoever's watching Evacs is doing a good job, was a little close." Guardian says, "Yeah, I dunno who's doing it, though. It must be the Assassin. Or Ilina." Assassin says, "It was me." >_> Whoever honestly believes that the Majority of this playerbase sees a Monk as a viaible tank, is smoking some wacky tobaccy. -Ilina Moon 37 Monkie Antonia Bayle Sick of Runnyeye
i mean its a lost debate- im sure by the number of post here this thread will be reviewed by someone - the red flag for the number of post get alot of attention- and for this reason - its monday and with the amount of bickering its still open and we know how good they are about locking threads.... at least i do - im positive they see that the community on both sides sees us as dps - that has been open water for quite some time now - the few tankers are outwieghed brutallly by the dps' inclined which doesnt matter in essence - but to really achieve a sense of balance for monks/bruisers - we would need a complete overhaul while most classes can get one or two spells fixed or adjusted and be on par. such as giving shadowknights a usable pet that stays persay 5 levels below the necromancers ability in summoning - which inherently would provide the dps to keep up with us and the last niche of tanking ability as to not offset their life taps into godly stature. which makes perfect sense to me and puts them right on par IMO- without much work other than fixing what issues they currently have. us on the other hand is a different kid in a different school- lost without a way to see the light - if they make us into a tank built by paris hilton and nicole ritchie (fancy tanks) then we need our skills to reflect as such with taunts or less consumption of power on our skills - or even still both - less pwer consumption and faster refresh timers so that our combat arts could be used to hold aggro without the need to cast a grp buff - which works but is not right in the least if we are to be forced to compete with all other MT advocates. just being nerfed of our dps spot and thrown to the wolves as to say fend for yourselves is just wrong - which i see coming like an angry train - and what will inevitably happen either way - by boosting scouts - or by nerfing dps on fighters and making us all meatshields without the meat and without the shield.
Well for one, the game except for raids is already 100% tankable by monks/bruisers. This much has been proven time and time again. For two, for a massive group of people to NOT think their class would be balanced as a tank even though its been stated many, many times that is what the class is, is ignorance. So if an angry army of pro DPS players rise up... oh well. There are plenty of other games they can go to, or other classes they can choose if they prefer a DPS role over a tanking role. SoE has never said all fighters are tanks... except monks and bruisers. In fact there has been many posts stating the exact opposite, patches/updates reinforcing our intended role and parses/logs showing that we can in fact tank. Honestly thinking that doing on par or better damage than scouts was going to stay that way is just sillyness. I'm sorry that you guys were hoping for a different outcome, for a resurgance of EQ1, but it isn't going to happen, and I'm glad. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-07-2005 08:47 PM
Gage, I have agreed with the argument that monks are billed as tanks, and so SOE should balance them fully as tank from the beginning. I also believe it is partly SOE's job to give us abilities that makes the community believe that we are tanks, because with our current skill set, there is nothing that makes others stand up and think, now there is a monk and a guardian looking for a group. Lets get the monk to tank. But the one problem I have with your last statement is this: By forcing everyone firmly into their roles, by not blurring the lines at all, by making one architype's DPS completely overshadow another, then this game will turn into EQ1, no matter which role we are fit into. I do not believe we should be half tank and half DPS, because that weakens us as a whole. We must be fully one or the other. But that act, by defualt, will help steer this game into becoming more like EQ1, which I do not want either. I don't have a solution for this problem, but then, I'm not a developer.
I dont think I would, I like being able to rip a new one is in a short period of time, as others have said in this thread if I wanted to be a guardian I would have rolled one. Sure it would be nice if we could tank without getting hurt too much but thats the price we pay for being able to hit things hard imho.
People... morons... stupid idiots... MONKS ARE TANKS. They are tanks and they will always be tanks. They are nearly balanced in the 1 to 50 content, excluding raids. Monks need a little boost in tanking, but for the most part, they are pretty good tanks. The problem is the perception of the playerbase. SOE needs to pop up a server MoTD for several weeks, saying that monks are tanks. Over and over to pound that fact into the thick skulls of all the ********* out there that think otherwise. Making monks tanks will not turn EQ2 into EQ1. That's the stupidest idea I've seen yet. By making monks DPS, that would be turning EQ2 into EQ1. People would start whining about one archetype/class encroaching on another archetypes role. Monks should NEVER be picked as dps over a scout. Look at EQ1. Clerics moan and whine about druids taking their group spots. Druids are never picked for anything. It's stupid. The archetype system solves most of the old class balancing problems in EQ1. It's so much better. I hate the people that are trying to ruin the archetype system.
And here's Sniperkitty with some more positive, friendly input: Morons... stupid idiots... thick skulls of all the ********* out there That's the stupidest idea I've seen yet People would start whining.Clerics moan and whine It's stupid I hate the people. :smileytongue: Message Edited by annaspider on 03-08-2005 09:16 AM
well sniperkitty i suggest you go into every zone all over norrath and say ... HEY ALL YOU STUPID IDIOT PEOPLE >>> MONKS ARE TANKS... and see how far you get. and gage yet again you illustrate the fact that you have no interest in anyones agenda but ur own given that time and time again people have openly expressed thier opinions being as to that they like the flexibility currently and that the obvious is that we dont get into grps as tanks- fine that you and sniper and family man first - and gangster fist that have high level monks and such do tank frequently and get enough grp invites to even go as far as turning dps roles down = but THE OTHER 85% DONT. so apparently the fact that you wish not to comprehend this is astounding in the ways that your agenda is becoming more clear than two days ago. get the point gage that even if we dont get touched at all and they just increase scouts we loose socially the spot that MOST if not ALL of us had. if they take the dps and give us puretanking ability - we still dont have the foothold socially that guardians have for the tanking roll or any other plate class for that matter - if they dont touch scouts and nerf us exclusively of our dps = without any adjustment of our skills to reflect that coveted 1 man MT roll. we are in the worst spot of all- saying that we cant hold aggro or take damage like a plate tank - we cant do as much dps as a scout or wiz - where do we fit without a complete overhaul of our class from scratch? now if you or anyone can counter that ^^^ with a sound and logical response that addresses the real issue at hand - the please do so. otherwise save it as far as the name calling and flames. thank you Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-08-2005 09:45 AM
Dont cry and try to make us the same as the other tanks. (Gage) Diversity...... Diversity.... Playing the role of DPS is nice. I love having a character that can do both, Tank and DPS. If I cant tank for raids... .booo [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing hooo, ill DPS. If the devs read this. Thank you Thank you for having some diversity in the fighter class. Im very happy with it, please dont listen to .......... Message Edited by JojoTheDog on 03-08-2005 09:54 AM
I've realised over the course of this debate that not only do my opinions not count, but that I don't really know as much about the game as a lot of you other posters. So I'm gonna keep my requests within the limits of my own expertise - Can we have slinkier-looking clothes? :smileyhappy:
I have been main tank in groups from level 10 to my current level 40, I also know of several other monks around my level on my server that do the same. I would like to know where you get the idea that 85% of people that play monks would prefer to be pure DPS, from my experiences on the server I play on that simply is not true. The only time I am not main tank is when I join a group that already has another tank in the group, as I normaly make the groups myself this only happens when I'm being lazy. Can you not see that scouts and mages at some point in the future WILL outdamage us considerably, given that they WILL do this what possible role do you see we fullfill if it is not to be the tank? do you realy think you will be considered for the DPS role over mages and scouts in a pick up group?
I read most of the posts here, but there were too many so i'll just post my thoughts. The monk is gonna be too hard to balance as a tank because we rely on random events to determine how effective we are. Because mitigation is a hard number and can be adjusted on the fly its effect in the solo vs raid world can be calculated easily. But because the monk is suppose to be based on avoidance it becomes harder to adjust this to handle raid encounter and keep solo encounters from becoming trivial. Leather, well leather is not gonna have its mitigation raised to match plate so that cuts out using that to effect our tanking. Botom line to make a Monk a better tank would be to make a line of skills unique to monks and tank. That line would be based on wards and would be used in conjunction with them. By itself this "shield" would not stop damage, but when a ward type spell is cast upon us it would double, triple the damage absorbed by the ward. This line could also have a built in aggro increaser for each time a mob hit us, reduce our dps, raise deflection, etc This by itself would not change the monk in the solo world, would not take away from the other fighter types in situations with clerics and would help clear the haze on monk tanking. bottom line for me though is : I like my monk right now. i like the fact that fighting a yellow solo mob i never know if i'm gonna die cause it got luck or I kill it because my skills worked better. Choo 42 Monk Butherblock
I would always choose tank over DPS. While I thought I would be a tank when I created my monk, these days I am far more valued as an off-tank/DPS player. Pretty much I just do what people want me to do. If they want me to tank, I tank. If they want me to beat the hell out of stuff from behind, I do that. It's sort of a shame though. I am not the kind of player that likes to stand there waiting for things to happen. I like to take an active role in what we fight, how to fight it, and where to fight it. Since this responsibility largely falls on the tank, it only makes sense that I should choose a tank. I never chose a monk to be DPS, I chose monks because they are cool. Their animations are fun, their skills are interesting, and their fun spell is a tiger (which I love). I discovered that I did good DPS only after I started parsing. I never realized that it was so good up until then. I certainly never asked for DPS, I just wanted to be a cool looking tank that dodged and parried; one that didn't look like a large trashcan. I think it is wrong to give a class taunt skills, defense skills, and group damage control skills like sacrifice, and then tell him, sorry you get to stand in the back more than 50% of the time. I think people don't realize that by saying "Guardians should be the best tanks, their class is nothing but a tank" that what they are really saying is: "To hell with unique characters, all fighters should be guardians if they want to tank." I think first and foremost every class should be capable of doing what its archetype demands. Scouts should be single target DPS, Mages should be multi-target DPS, Priests should all be good healers, and Fighters should all be good tanks. As soon as you say something like "Templars are the best healers, I don't want anyone healing me who isn't a Templar" or "Assassins are the best DPS, I don't want any people being DPS other than assassins since they are the best." you are saying you don't like uniqueness. Sure some sub-classes will sacrifice some small amount of their primary function in order to provide other utilities functions, but the primary function should always be something they can provide, even at the raid level. If a player cannot provide the primary function of his archetype at the raid level, then he is largely a wasted slot in a raid party. What point is there to getting to level 50 if by the time you get there, there is nothing for you to do, your original purpose can no longer be served? It is not good enough that classes can serve their purpose from level 1-49, they MUST fulfill their positions beyond that too.
Once again: I never implied that our DPS would be outright lowered. I was referring to the difference in damage done between our archetype and the scout archetype. I doubt they will lower ours because our solo play and the fighter archetype damage balance is pretty much there I think. Regardless of how its done though, once scouts are 100% better at melee damage, why would anyone want a monk for DPS?
The real issue at hand is that SOE has made it clear that they intend mages and scouts to outrank fighters in the dps department. If we want to be viable competitors for spots in groups for all the content we need to focus our attention on being viable competitors with other fighter subclasses. BTW, I'm an alt-oholic so my monk is only level 27. It's not just Gage and Gangsterfist et alia that worry about this issue. It'll take me a while to get to the endgame but I'll be there eventually.
poster - you as everyone else totally missed the point - as always - like talking to a bed of spikes closing in on your - those facts have already been explored- mr monkey t a n k === is both unaccepted socially - and subpar in skill base..... simple example why use a tank that has to use grp buffs which cost 80PWR when you could have a more rounded tank who can do a taunt thats more powerful than every taunt skill available to your class and use less pwr? taunts cost 40 pwr tops. more efficient fuel - better production - less maintenance.. this is just one example of our many short comings - our class would have to receive a complete overhaul to compete with the other MT's of norath both socially and in skill and ability read the other post i wrote in the other forum like this then comment on a solution. dont come stir up already muddy water whats the point above poster? whats the point?? ps great job crunion - now some one is getting the point Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-08-2005 11:05 AM Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-08-2005 11:08 AM
