Truebox - Fact vs. Fiction

No, what I'm saying is that in their internal accounting, the actual client that consumes the krono gets to book that revenue. So if someone uses krono to pay for their EQ2 all access, logs into an EQ1 TLP and farms 40 krono, which they spend in their EQ2 client, all of that revenue from all of that krono goes to EQ2. EQ2 gets the credit for generating the revenue, regardless of which client was actually used for the purchase of the krono originally. DBG as a company sees no difference, but the EQ dev team budget only benefits from krono consumed by clicking on it in EQ.

It's like when the sales team at your company gets a huge bonus for selling the product but the actual product production team does not see anything. DBG is pushing krono but the actual teams can only really bank on subscriptions, because the feedback from krono consumption is entirely noise, largely because of things like the EQ TLP arbitrage opportunities. As far as what game specifically the players WANT to be playing, they have no good feedback signal, which is why so many of their decisions seem irrational to those of us actually still playing EQ because we want to, not because we're earning play time in another DBG game.

By all accounts, EQ1 is the largest revenue source since H1Z1 imploded, but that info is a year out of date (my source stopped caring enough to find out).

Ah. Gotcha. I didn't realize it worked that way. I just assumed it was spread out evenly between the games. Good to know, though. Well, these days I don't play multiple games, so all of the kronos/money I spend is to play EQ.

So if you're paying by credit card, how is that used, though? Since unlike a krono where you click it in the game, it's done just through your account?

Hi! Anti-boxer here. Since you mention it, just to put it out there, I'm absolutely in favor of a "no krono" server, and I'd also be fine with having AOCs in every zone, because monopolization of content and the in-game and RMT markets are indeed my concerns. I just haven't been lobbying for those because I think the likelihood of success is too small to warrant the effort. I suspect my reasoning is typical for the rest of the crowd over here.

Also, get out of here with that collective punishment BS. You're not being punished (although if you're boxing 12 accounts, I'd sure love an explanation on how you're doing that without using third-party software).

On 12 different pc's there is no way in hell someone can do that effectively. I am not saying it's impossible. If I tried realllllly hard, I could probably legitimately box 12 chars on 12 pcs, but if all I wanted to do was sit around with 6 of them doing nothing at all.

12 boxing on one PC, however, can be done with and without "hax", if that is what you're implying the software is. I don't exclusively know DBG's stance on the software I will mention (honestly, no company has/would ever come out and say "Yeah, you can use that", they never have with any software they don't actively ban for, Magelo, etc.), but in the past, SOE did not care across all of their MMO games (as well as a few other MMO producers), and that is by using a boxer assist program. It does not script or automate, so many times, no one cares that you're using it. (I certainly would not approve it on a TLP server if I was DBG, however). They tend to typically go after people using active hacks and scripts to automate characters versus the ability to click 1 button and everyone clicks that same button at the same time (if you hit W on the main window, all the background windows hit W too, sort of thing). Not that either are "fair" per-say, or that I even condone either, but there is a huge difference between being able to sit back while 1 char pulls, another auto heals at a set HP percent, another one runs behind a mob perfectly, etc all on their own. So, most have focused their efforts on going after the people using scripts. There is a guy who used to live stream in WoW running a ton of chars using this program, which is how I found out about it, even Blizzard didn't seem to give two about it.

I could honestly still 12 box on a single machine without the use of any software, it would be easier than boxing on 12 machines, but still would not be very sufficient and would be very slow. Character composition would matter greatly, so aside from 1 tank, I wouldn't have any other melee chars because it would take too much time to run however many I had to the mob. So it would be healer, bard, SK for FD pulling/tanking, and a bunch of mages/necros with pets that never cast spells just /target tank /assist /pet attack (maybe add a delay and get 1 nuke or dot off). Reaction times would be so off, and I'd probably end up tabbing to the wrong screen and getting myself wiped. I guess I could make each char its own tiny window but that'd be a pain every time I loaded EQ. But, maybe after a lot of practice it'd be genuinely easier to do, too.

I want to add, I am against using hacks or any software (including keystroke software). But, I am not oblivious to it. And I know these things will never go away as long as there is an MMO on the market that people still play. It is what it is. I do think some things are way worse than others. I'd be more upset about someone using active hacks and scripts than someone using something that makes everyone click the same button. I, personally, would not use either. I care too much about the time and money I've invested into my accounts to lose them forever.

I always dread the day that EQ ends up like VG. Losing VG was so hard on me, because of the time and money I pooled into that game, and EQ, I've spent WAY more on. Getting banned would devastate me, and I am not willing to risk that! I guess others aren't as sentimental about it as I am. But I found EQ at a time in my life when my life was utter crap. It's like a baby to me. I love my accounts. <3

For what it's worth, although they banned discussion of the major software that people normally use for key broadcasting (because people spent a lot of time arguing over whether it was legal or not five or six years ago, and they got tired of the arguments...) They do not actually ban or suspend people for using the software or using key broadcasting, outside of the truebox servers where it is specifically against the rules. And didn't, even back in the days when they would ban people for using scripting. I have seen a few different GM's show up to investigate friends using the software over the years, who were reported for scripting but really just using broadcasting, and after being shown the key broadcasting setup, the GM response has always been, "Cool, carry on."

Everyone has their own risk tolerance, but this stuff at least is extremely low risk.

I have literally never violated the EULA. Though I'll freely admit others in my camp (the pro-boxers) regularly do. Will you admit that people in the anti-boxer camp regularly violate the EULA by disrupting zones through mass trains intended solely to grief other players?

There's no righteous standing here. Because of the actions of some, I am not allowed to play the way I want. I have been assigned a group and my guilt has been determined solely by membership in that group.

I suspect the reasoning of most of the crowd on the true box servers is pro-krono. That's based entirely on that being where the krono is coming from. Rest assured, you are in the minority if you are anti-krono. If they're paying attention at all, they know to keep that opinion to themselves.

So toxic are most of the "ermagherd if you didn't loot it you didn't earn it" folks that most people actually engaging in, you know, an economy of trade, just keep it on the down-lo.

I'd sooner shoot myself in the face then trade anything on my main, as an example. That's why virtually all trading is done through anonymous alts, it's literally toxic attitudes like yours that have created a "witness protection" mentality.

To Elyani's point: I know the software you're talking about, and I'm not implying that it's a "hax"--whatever the hell that is--or anything other than what it is, which I think we agree on.

Where we disagree is what constitutes automation. In my view this software ought to be bannable because simultaneously (or with a programmed delay) relaying keypresses to multiple (12!) running instances of EQ is something that an ordinary player cannot do without the software (or extra arms). You can use the software to cause one keypress to have the effect of 12. That's automation. Just because it's simple automation doesn't change the fact that the software is making inputs (in this case, 11 of them) that you didn't make yourself. Automation is a stack of characters that all move together like a swarm with one keypress (or more likely cast together, since /follow obviates the need for movement relays), instead of one at a time.

I understand that in the absence of the trueboxing code (which, judging from the complaints, must be pretty effective in general), DBG has been pretty hands-off about bans, but I can't help but imagine that has more to do with personnel costs than principle.

The difficulty you describe in managing 12 characters without third party software is the true elegance of the truebox code. It's a level playing field: you can run as many characters as your actual human mental and physical constitution can manage. As I've mentioned before on one or two of these threads, I don't actually have any objection to a server in which players can box on one computer, provided that third party software--like the kind you use--is prohibited, and I have to assume the difficulty in implementing that kind of solution is a technical and financial one. Truebox is something that can be automated with very little ongoing costs. I actually don't have a problem with boxing or people who box in principle.

Where my grievance lies is with the inescapable reality that running an army of characters requires the use of technology that inherently gives a single player with boxes an in-game advantage over non-boxing players. That advantage is what has generated the horror stories we've been reading this week about box swarms dominating zones across multiple /picks and cornering multiple markets in order to extort Krono (a non-zero amount of the time for purposes of RMT). It's intuitively obvious that even the simplest level of automation is unfair and advantageous, and it's honestly baffling to me that people are here openly lobbying for the permission something that in '99 would have been the subject of scorn writ large.

Truebox isn't a perfect solution. It's a bit of a hammer, and I'll concede that it has inevitably caught some people in its sweep who were innocently alt-tabbing their way to success before its introduction. I think that's a shame, but I also think that's a reasonable price to pay for a more fair server.

What toxic attitude is that? Apparently I'm guilty by association, but I don't even know who I'm being associated with.

I'm going to try to respond politely, difficult though it might be.

Maybe comprehension is the problem here however. As I can't comprehend your attitude.

If you have a new Truebox server to play on what the hell does it matter to you if another server exists for boxers???

Answer the damn question.

I think the key word here is "imagine." Your post is pure fantasy.

As I said a few posts above, SoE and DBG employees have done nothing about it AFTER investigating. The work was already done, the personnel costs already invested, and they consistently chose to allow it.

No doubt the current apathy toward scripting on live is in part due to personnel issues, but key broadcasting was allowed even back when they had the personnel to enforce a ban if they wished.

Really? Well TIL. Show me those links and screenshots, bro.

That's not really how companies or PMO's budget.

I just want to point out that I do not use any kind of software. Not sure if you thought I did merely because I made mention of it. But I use none.

"hax" would just be automation via scripts. We both know exactly what "that is".

Oh now you're just trying to confuse me!

It already is prohibited. I mean, DBG doesn't want anything tainting their money making servers. (Again I don't use it).

But you're right. It would be hard for them (it always has been) to detect these sorts of things without using an invasion program that monitors the players PCs, like BattleEye, for example. If it's client side, they can't really see it. They can detect things that are done to their server (which is things like warping or whatever, but even with that, jesus, took them forever to catch the idiots warping on Agnarr!!). But because people are report trigger happy, even those of us who box legit are sort of cautious about how we box. Prior to the spamming on one-IP disconnect thing, I was accused of using 3rd party software simply because I had macros on my 1 key for my casters and I'd hit them all pretty quickly so there wasn't a huge delay between them casting. I got tired of people accusing me of things I wasn't doing so I had to add a pause to delay my macros so they didn't cast as quickly when I'd hit 1 on each computer. Then it just slowed me down. Honestly, I think that part is the worst. Worrying about what others think/say and dealing with GMs (which I never have, because maybe they aren't as stupid and cynical as the idiots around me in game) when I am following all of the rules simply because there is no effort involved in hit 1 on the keyboards that surround my desk.

But those who really want to do what they want to do will always find a way around that stuff. They are doing it with Truebox, they will do it with everything. I'm not suggesting that we just throw our hands up and say "I give up" and let it go, but that is a reality.

I apologize for the misunderstanding: I took "I could honestly still 12 box on a single machine without the use of any software ... " to indicate that you used some kind of boxing software (or had in the past) rather than as purely hypothetical. And no, we don't--or didn't until now--both know what "hax" is. That's not a vernacular I've read in this context before, and I assumed it was pejorative. I couldn't imagine choosing to say that instead of just saying scripting if that's what you're talking about.

I'm an anti-boxer in that I'm on that side of what has become a binary divide. People have been squaring off this week, and so I'm on the side of the aisle that likes the truebox code and could never see playing another TLP without it, given the choice. But the sentiment isn't a personal objection to people who manually box, either by alt-tabbing or on multiple machines. It's a grievance against the use of the unnameable box-army-enabling software and its use to abuse server populations prior to truebox. Given that the current server tech for EQ can't distinguish between the two, all boxing is getting lumped together--again, something that's unfortunate but without a present solution. It's a complicated issue, but when forced to take sides--truebox or no--I'm for truebox every time.

Regrettably, some people have and will continue to get around truebox, but I think we agree that it's been an improvement on the swarm-box-army problem (especially over Ragefire's launch), even if it came at personal cost to innocent boxers.

Fair, I guess this game just brings out the old EQ player in me, where we just called it "hax" versus "scripting" or using the actual name for that certain specific software.

I do get this, but it's still very unfair towards people who don't use programs but still box. Especially when, if we mention we box, people automatically assume the worst. And, thus, lump us all together. But, believe it or not, plenty of people use these programs and don't box at all. I'm betting the worst offenders on Agnarr probably don't box (like the warping thing). People that used no-delay on live servers merely needed a monk to take down current raid targets solo. These are things that put other players at a severe disadvantage are are done by solo people. I'd never lump all solo players as "warpers" because of a select few. Plenty of solo players also do other non-program related despicable things, such as grieving in various ways. Again, I don't paint the entire community with a broad brush because of it. It's not fair. Like I have said before on other posts, this is about individuals, not entire communities.

The Ragefire swarm bots wouldn't have been as big of an issue if certain things were noticed prior to, or at least early on in the release of, the server. While 3rd party software may have helped facilitate this issue, it was more to do with the OP class being used. I am not gonna lie, I 6 boxed on Ragefire Magefire, 5 mages and an Enchanter. It was ez-street without the help of any assistance programs. And it wasn't because it didn't have truebox... it was because mages were OP. When they fixed Mages, I dropped 4 mages and brought in a cleric and wizard. While Mages are still pretty OP during the leveling game, they aren't as decent now and later in the game become more of a burden as a box than anything. Hence people don't box a bunch of mages with new TLPs. But if Mages were still OP, people would still mass mages.

It would affect me a few iota. That might be what people might want (a third server) but they are instead asking that one of the two announced servers be adjusted to eliminate true box.

Here is how it will affect me, and you. It will split the people playing on one server or another. Two servers would already be an issue of split IF both servers were viable but Mangler in its current state is a total joke. Will I not be able to get sugar water for my bees because a third server is spun up without truebox? No.

Has DBG never done this already for what is most likely a financial reason? All signs point to yes.

Yea it was pretty shocking to me. I wish I was just guessing or making it up, but that's how they "credit" krono consumption internally. Until it is consumed, it is shown on their books as a liability, which makes a kind of sense I guess, and then once consumed they realize the revenue based on where it was consumed. So while it all goes into the "greater DBG games pot" that pot is subdivided by the various teams. When they report internally on the profit from each game, direct krono sales isn't the number they use, it's krono consumption within that game. You could buy $50,000 krono from the EQ station cash interface (or wherever the hell krono comes from) but if you spend that krono in the EQ2 client it shows up as revenue for EQ2.

What's interesting is that concept of extra arms. How would you feel about an amputee that lost an arm but who used to be able to box, using an assistance program to restore that ability? Would you trade places with such a person?

Shortly after the kunark unlock on Lockjaw, I had a severe pain in my left shoulder that I thought might have been from playing nonstop for six days to beat Kunark. After a month of taking it easy and pain killers etc the shoulder wasn't getting any better, so I went thru a series of doctor visits which ultimately resulted in surgery to repair the shoulder. While in surgery they found that the damage wasn't actually caused by overuse as they had thought, the upper part of my arm was just ravaged with cancer, and the surgeon made the call to amputate, they had to remove the entire left arm, and some bits going into the torso. Later procedures and treatments would result in the removal of close to forty bones in total. I spent over a year where I was never out of the hospital for more than a long weekend.

I have more unoriginal organs than original. My entire body is covered with scars from surgery, and I have significant mobility impairments. I logged back in to Lockjaw once I was stable to check in and let them know I'd survived, my last update to them had been probably eight months earlier when I was not expected to live, and that's where the relevant portion of the story begins:

I couldn't play EQ like that. The disability aids and accessibility of the game are terrible. But a former dev was in my guild and worked with me developing a set of tools to get me back to where I could play the way I wanted and have fun again in game. Now it is true that what he set up lets me do what I used to do with two arms even better with only one, and getting very, very, precise with voice commands, which I suppose is a third party software, but it's alot closer to a peripheral control device than that.

If you were to watch me play EQ today, it's far more "Ranger start shooting, Shaman cast 1, Enchanter cast 1, Heal Tank, Heal Tank, Rez Tank, WTF!" then what you imagine of just sitting there watching some automated process unfold. This same limitation also keeps me from being as useful in pick-up-groups, because there are certain things I can do very very well, there's others I just can't do at all. So rather than inflict my self on strangers who literally have no way to tell what they're signing up for, I just prefer to do my own thing.

But I went through the EULA line by line and I'm breaking no rules. Unlike the stuff you're worried about, which can run on fifty computers as easily as one, my command structure just cannot be adapted for multiple machines, I've tried it and cannot get it to work. And the boxer hate means my dev friend who helped me set it up is long gone. It already takes me a week or more after a patch to get things working again, because it's just THAT important to change where bard songs filter to or whatever crap is changing again.

So while you could state a rule for a server "limit 2 or limit 3" and I would happily not break that rule like I've broken no other rules, instead it's "true box lol make friends" and I just roll my eyes.

Again, giving us a server that isn't true box literally doesn't affect you at all. Causes you no harm, denies you nothing. It is pure irrationality to insist that all future servers be true box. It isn't good for the game, it isn't good for the community. It accomplishes none of the goals you claim to espouse. But it does cause tangible harm in denial of opportunity to one customer who is, quite frankly, working far harder to play this game than you can probably fathom.

That all depends on how many people come back, either way. I think they'd have more people coming back if they had a better option for one of the two servers. In DBG's mind, they honestly thought that enough people would come back to warrant two servers. To them, they had this magically idea that half of their potential customers would like Selo and half would like Mangler. Clearly, they were wrong. But they probably are only looking out how crazy launch day tends to be in terms of how many are subbing and logging in, but fail to realize that population starts to drop off pretty quickly.

If there is enough of a demand to have a non-true box server open, it wouldn't really effect you on the truebox server... because, according to many on these forums, there is apparently not very many who want to box, the greater, by far, majority want to play a single account forever. Lol. So, either way, DBG has one popular server and one seemingly DOA server. Since they are already planning to open two, and nearly everyone seems fine with Selo as is, I don't see how changing Mangler to a non-true box would hurt Selo at all. Not that I think it would happen, but would be nice. Then, all the dirty boxers would leave the perfect TrueBox TLP everyone has their heart set on. And if we go by what the general consensus seems to believe the reality is, there would only be a few boxers on Mangler (the server that was only gonna have a handful of people on it anyhow, apparently).

Unless we're admitting that there really are enough people that want truebox gone to believe it'd have a big impact on a truebox server's population should they get one... in which case, they should get one anyhow.

Sorry, my brain is malfunctioning.

It is not 1999 anymore, the game and its rules have evolved and changed over the years. You are saying things are wrong that are allowed on all the non-Truebox servers. I play on a non-Truebox tlp so I can use software to box. It is not against the rules there as long as you are not doing unattended play or using any game hacks (warping, etc...). I am not doing any of those so am not cheating. You are pushing your personal play style on others. I am not asking for Truebox to be eliminated so you are forced to play my way or with those that play my way, I am asking for a AoC tlp server without the truebox restrictions to accommodate my play style.

They have now announced the 5th Truebox server in a row. There are plenty of AoC Truebox servers for that crowd. We are asking for one for our playstyle. We currently have zero. They put out a ton of these servers, there is room in this game for more than one play style. There are many like me looking for a similar experience.