Test Update 08/12/2014 - Pet Changes Round 4

24 hit parse is now evidence? (Edit: I even missed it was the bash column since it was so easy to just follow his highlighted path and nod.)

If you want to see amazing pull 20 mobs with a merc healing while you have NTTB + Last Stand up talk about god mode.

24 bashes. Far more hits. He noted that he highlighted the wrong thing.

24 attempted bashes, 311 attempted hits, multiple fights from 100 to dead back to back with similar results to ensure any one of them was not a fluke.

I apologize for highlighting the wrong column (bashes vs hit).

Sarcasm is lost on you lol. It is a joke, and actually highlights why using a garg pet and tracking pets hits is a terrible way to try and find any stable data.

Your grasping at straws. A spell that eats over 3k mana is a hugely intensive mana sink, how much mana do pally stuns cost? That is also a mana sink that will not live its entire life. Part of the reason why we can not slow like the other 2 main pet classes? Check. Whereas our pets can step in to tank for them (if you try flip the situation), and they lose nothing when our pets are tanking.

Like I said we are tuned around that pet tanking and have very limited CC methods without it. Pallies have more tools to CC then us, which is how it should be, but it literally holds no ground for a tanking situation. They do not lose tanking power because of their CC abilities, nor do other classes.

Average Garg pet life? Considering they took almost 200k more DMG and SHOULD have been on the mob less time then the Earth pet.

Having to rely on this type of an argument to prove your case kind of shows your on the losing end. When the sun is in my eyes, and my shoes are untied I can not run as quickly as if they were tied...

Yes but as you well know the gargoyle pet doubles as a not insignificant amount of total damage output. Assuming they have time to run their course they aren't an inefficient use of mana for damage. Even soaking damage and dying early they were putting out a good strong amount of dps. Rogers dps is inflated due to the hit counter limited DS.

Compared to healing and even casting runes they represent a very efficient spell line - good damage and very stout dmg soaking/avoiding (from a required healing standpoint) all neatly rolled into one package.

Slow the mob and they have more up time and thus a multiplicative impact on up time for ice flame recourse, nefori, aegis and auspice. Stuns on the mob? Same deal. In a sense, the nature of stacking and the use of the RS line (as compared with slowing abilities of necros and bsts) is a much more powerful niche - and honestly not what I was expecting. As you already know the fewer total hits received over time, the higher up time and this defensive up time of limited hit block abilities.

I expected necro > bst > Mage for required healing.
What we got was Mage > necro > best for required healing in a molo setup.

When you start adding variables it's harder to draw conclusions. To quote you:

This is not necessarily true. First off, to my knowledge you neglected to include swarm pets for necs/beasts, but you did use them here.

Furthermore in some content a necro can root, and therefore reduce incoming damage significantly. The more mobs pulled and rooted, the less damage a nec pet would take in comparison to mage/beast. In other content they can FD pull (which is very slow btw) and reduce the incoming damage by fighting less mobs (yes, mages can split mobs with less reliability and frequency). On the other hand, beasts have more healing ability.

In a molo setup, you have to take into account an entire class to find the required healing. Except you can't do this because there are tons of different situations where different abilities come into play that change the results. In the end it's hard to generalize that in all situations a class requires more/less healing.

Worrying about a class's entire tool-set is a daunting proposition, and one best left to the developers. None of us know what their end goal is, so it's difficult to judge what's balanced and what isn't. What we can do is compare pets to pets, and acknowledge that other tools exist. Once you start adding in extra abilities, it muddies conclusions and makes data harder to analyze.

I do understand that many criticized passive mitigation parses which led to this, but personally I find it hard to draw any real conclusions because these parses only represent certain facets of the classes (because, of course, what if....?)

Not sure why your surpised lol.

Mage's have used our Garg pets since DoDH to off-tank/tank.

Like I said our class has been balanced around that for years, and because of that we are not allowed to have certain abilities. However, slows are a much more mana efficient way to reduce incoming DMG then our garg pet which doesn't reduce anything (actually takes it harder then Earth per your parse). It is merely moving the hits around, all the DMG remains there and Garg pets actually take more DMG then Earth. And, if you are using Virulent Talon your pet isn't losing aggro to the Garg pet, which is a key area for DPS where you would be burning like on a named fight where the incoming DMg is greater then just trash.

Your using our best tank pet, but our worst DPS pet which means it has lower aggro generation. So, while it is burning and such it is holding aggro far longer then in your examples above. I do believe Aristo adjusted the hate generation (against my wishes) in the last test patch, but I have not yet seen the results to see if that has changed.

Your scenario yet again favors your side, while you neglect to look at different areas where it is not as impactful on say named or multiple mobs where your using Garg pets to offtank and your normal pet to aggro the one your killing.

None of this matters though, the patch is going live tomorrow no matter how unhappy you are with it. Possibly find another class to pester?

Nope, swarm pets for the beastlord was a the majority of my own spell cast dps given that I was healing. Look back at the necro swarms and you'll see it was used. Beastlord swarm does not generate nearly as much threat as mage - necro is several small pets that cumulatively put out reasonable damage but individually do not and likewise do not generate a ton of threat.

Mage also has a significantly lower recast time on swarms.

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To humor you guys:

EM15 mage earth pet with reactive healer merc moloing. I intentionally did not use any pet heals, did not use any promised heals, did not use any runes/abilities either during or before a fight, and comically also avoided using one of the best spell lines you had: swarm pet. Mobs were not slowed or debuffed other than aa Malo line.

DPS:


RbR


Avoid


Spells:


In intentionally avoiding using any activated "help my pet out" abilities, to include hamstringing myself by intentionally not using RS line:
1) My own dps was 10k lower
2) Pet took the same average incoming dps as a group geared warrior toting shield with shield proficiency
3) Pet took 4k less dps than a shadowknight who has all major discs on cooldown, 2k less than a knight cycling these major discs over time.
3) I used MORE mana per fight - relying more on less efficient single target DDs
4) Healer used MORE mana per fight
5) Healer, though healing more, had zero (and I mean zero) problems keeping this otherwise afk pet alive

This concept of the RS line being an inefficient use of mana or "not to be counted" indirect aspect of pet defensive capabilities and direct aspect of mage solo/molo prowess is silly. Using it - I use less mana, my healer uses less mana, the mob takes more damage, and my primary workhorse pet takes less damage.

I have clearly highlighted in the graphs a moment in time where the stupid healer merc was standing on top of the mob trying to heal herself instead of moving. I also included the per fight average dps so there is no complaint of lack of transparency in how this moment in time may or may not have negatively impacted the total dps for the block of time.

I'll repeat the above methods of avoiding using RS line and just using block abilities to demonstrate their isolated impact on pet survivability. Expect total avoidance levels lower than RS + blocks given more total hits received on Roger per unit time.

ok I just tried doing some 1v2 fights on test in cotf t2.

with max aa and em20 pet buffed out with just merc buffs and pet haste. using just my pet rune spell and aa's.

mobs where 1 even con and1 db con spider.

1st attempt was without using pet fort. pet was dead in 25 secs.
2nd attempt was with pet fort even with using swarm pets to help while war pet tanked both pet was dead in bout 67 sec

I then tried 1v2 with using swarm pets to off tank one. This would have work had I not been so focus on seeing how the swarm pets held up that I forgot to cast rune on my main pet lol.

I see that if I get a add my chose will be to punt root it or swarm it down(while remembering to rune my pet).

forgot ot add i have mage pet gear as well. don't know why i can't use the edit button on here.

EM15 earth pet f/u study to the one above. RS pet intentionally excluded, blocks worked into routine. Self buffs and potions only for myself, cleric merc buffs and mage buffs only for pet.


DPS:


RBR


Avoidance


Casts:



These defensive measures were 100% un-necessary. The previous line of tests showed that a mage doing nothing to help their pet out - unslowed mob merc keeps up just fine. But, this is what your short recast defensive abilities can do for you if you pretend you don't have the RS line to help you out.

Yep, I gave it to you

That was me.

You logged out before I could tell you how I would approach it. Pull 2 mobs and let pet aggro both. Sick pet primarily on one and slow that one, but keep your swarm pets (you have up 3 lines on different cooldowns) fighting add only. Support your pet as it refreshes and focus your dots on the primary target. Do not damage, stun, slow or otherwise do anything to the other mob. If it eats all your swarm pets, it will then turn back on your primary pet and not summon you like I watched it do. Use those armies of skeletons to entirely take the damage from the 2nd mob (you know they can - and they don't do very bad dps to boot while doing it) while you use longer burning dots on primary target. Once primary target is dead - stun/slow the 2nd and go to town.

I'm about to watch a movie with the wife but i'm 99% confident this method will work flawlessly.

Remember with a slowed mob and using your runes on cooldown that primary mob is only going to be doing 2900-3k dps to your pet. Even if/when the second mob turns on your pet, youre only looking at a total effective dps to heal through of 10-11k dps - something a reactive merc can handle. Rolling dps might peak as high as 15-20k for brief moments of time, but those moments should be very brief or else you dropped the ball and failed to do something correct.

Just to recap, for the magician:


Using swarm pets AND blocks:

Outgoing dps: 25406
Incoming dps needing to be healed: 1391



Using swarm pets and NO blocks:

Outgoing dps: 36,447
Incoming dps needing to be healed: 3865




No swarm pets AND blocks:

Outgoing dps: 21298
Incoming dps needing to be healed: 3814



No swarm pets, NO blocks:

Outgoing dps: 26,387
Incoming dps needing to be healed: 5449



DOUBLE PULL with swarm pets AND blocks:

Outgoing dps: 16186
Incoming dps needing to be healed: 6648




Group geared war (shield + proficiency) cycling discs for protracted time WITH bard adps/overhaste:

Outgoing dps: 8307
Incoming dps needing to be healed: 4141



Group geared knight cycling discs for protracted time WITH bard adps/overhaste:

Outgoing dps: 9679
Incoming dps needing to be healed: 7511

For none of the above were mobs slowed.

@Dae-

The time differential is going to increase everything lol. You are comparing 2 parses that are 90 seconds different in the duration. So, if you used less mana I would be surprised, not going to surprise me that you used more mana when it took you more time to kill the mobs with worse spells.

I would expect if you cast 6 more spells you would use more mana. I am not a rocket scientist but 65 spells cast (DMG spells) vs 59 spells cast should equal more mana used. Using fickle doesn't make much sense either, its more mana and less DMG then Bolt. Less mana but almost 5k less DMG base then our previous spear. Would mean quicker fights ect.


I do not see the part where you played this out on named, or multiple mob pulls minus discs. That is the issue we run into quite frequently. Does that single merc do fine against 2 mobs when the trash mob eats through garg pets? What is the incoming DPS then?

I mean if your really trying to prove the pets are more then fine (which can be read in your posts and the pig-headed comment), you would go that extra yard and parse things that actually matter and not some trash mobs that a lot of classes can tank.

Like I said, doesn't matter. You did not get your way, and now your resorting to name calling because your unhappy that your full intention did not play out properly. Pets will not suck, they are weaker then before but were nerfed a lot worse based on your biased parses. Then we gave them some legit parses and it got changed in a much better direction for the BETTERMENT OF THE GAME. I do feel bad that you spent so much time for something that clearly is still not right in your mind.

And this is the problem when you start adding variables.

I can go out and use Summon Companion and the air pet (stunning) along with RS and have the air pet basically never take damage. That's not practical or necessary, but I can parse it. I can also bring my enchanter and stun lock a mob, and anyone could be tanking and take no damage.

We aren't going to agree on which variables to conclude because to parse every variable would be insane. Here's a few scenarios (just molo, adding classes would further scenarios) that haven't been parsed:

• A necro fighting rootable mobs (but multiples) versus a mage doing the same. The necro pet would only be fighting one mob whereas the mage pet would be fighting however many are pulled, minus the one the RS pet is OTing
• A necro using the unlinked swarm pet lines to OT a mob in the same manner a mage can
• Any of the pet classes using Swarm pets with summon companion
• A necro, mage, and beast all faced with a situation where mob splitting is required. This can't be parsed but is a major difference in how the classes work

When you consider every tool a class has, many come into play in different scenarios. Some have a greater effectiveness in one scenario than another. Some can be more powerful when utilized a certain way. Some have major tradeoffs.

Like I said before, I get that people criticized you for AFK parses. But in many ways you were right to start there. When you start adding variable upon variable, it becomes much easier to manipulate the data to prove a certain point. This is happening on both sides, because all of these abilities have strengths and weaknesses, and some cannot be represented as a number. At this point we have a myriad of parses showing different things in certain scenarios that don't carry over to other scenarios to the point where no reasonable conclusion can be drawn.

You do realize the multiple pull is wrong, yes? The DPs on the EARTH PET is 6.6k DMG, the ACTUAL DPS is 13.8k DPS needing to be healed. You can not dismiss the Garg pets DMG merely because that is not hitting the Earth pet.

13.8k DPS while shields running on our two pets is a bit steep. With blocks you had the Earth pet at 3.8k DPS incoming, now on a double pull that shoots up to 6.6k DPS in that example alone (RNG applying). So the incoming DPS essentially doubles up, while the pet has Gargs there on top of the shields to alleviate the incoming DMG.

Garg pets taking 2.1k more DPS then our Earth pet, and over double what the Warrior is taking.

The merc can't heal the swarm pet. Damage it takes and soaks is damage not needing to be healed.

So, if the merc can heal the swarm pet? Does that damage all of a sudden count? If that Garg pet were a player, would that player not be taking 8.7k DPS? Literally the exact same concept. We were not talking about HEALED, we are talking about DPS. And, your DPS calculation was off by 8.7k on a double pull.

Thats illogical and you are trying to make your 'argument' seem better. The actual DPs is what everything tanking, tanks during the time allotted. That would be 13.8k incoming DPS on a multiple pull. Which is 3 times what your warrior is taking (unsure what type of scenario that is ect).

Again that is quite a bit of DPS incoming on merely trash mobs with pet using block buffs, and our garg pets tanking as well. Shines some light on the true issue which is multiple pulls, pretty sure a lot of the posts in these threads have specifically said that multiple pulls ruin our current tanking setup for pets.

Should our Garg pet be taking 4.6k more DPS on the same mobs then a group geared Warrior? Seems pretty steep considering the entire point behind the pet is an off-tank. IMHO that should be down from 8.7k to around 6-7k with our main pet since that pet is not out all of the time.

The point is the merc does not heal the swarm. Therefore damage it soaks is damage that does not need to be healed. It is as simple as that. That is functionally - precisely how it works and is - precisely how it is functionally used.

You and I both know that.

Is the DPS being done? Yes.

You and I both know that is true, you are merely trying to use the assumption that, that pet is leaving so it does not count. When in reality, it does fully count. Like I said, if 2 players were in the same situation, would the DPs be there? Of course. There is no difference with pets accept you are able to cast another one. The casting of another one, does not in anyway impact a DPS argument. It impacts survivability of the main pet.

The DMG absolutely needs to be healed lol. It eats probably 30 seconds off of those pets. Merely because mercs can not or wont heal those pets does not mean that DMG should not be healed. Just because you say it does not need to be healed doesn't mean it doesn't need to be healed. If something is missing HP the logical thing means it needs to gain that HP back from heals.

Pretty funny we are having this argument.....