Rampage will now one shot my Necro pets. Can pets get something besides mitigation to survive constant rampages on raids?
SK is my main and very well raid geared, I box a mage with a EM 20 item and I can say my SK out tanks my mage pet easily, now I am sure the pets would out tank group geared tanks, but not a raid geared tank unless they not know how to play their class.
Umm, My Warrior pet was already dieing to Ramp on live. Now it is guaranteed on test. Sorry, Hakmer, for your disappointment.
Whether you like Danielle or not, the point is being lost on the parse by Denial. He has data of the EM18 earth pet tanking Roon with cleric 3rd spire and various warrior group buffs. A molo magician will never have those buffs available to the magician. As a result the data is skewed and invalid when making a comparison between a molo warrior and molo earth pet.
So this guy made a parse a while back proving without a shadow of a doubt that there is a massive advantage in pet damage intake, to such extremes that it was looking downright ridiculous. But apparently, the entire parse is completely invalidated because lo and behold, the pet had a couple of extra buffs on it. Had it not had those buffs, the warrior would totally have outtanked the pet. Anyone can see that... or? In your wildest dreams, mages, do you really think those few buffs made all the difference? Cause literally everyone who isn't in here grasping at whatever little straw they can get their hands on to defend the imbalance that was, knows that isn't the case. Pets needed nerfing, they got nerfed. Now, it turns out the nerfs may have gone too far, but don't pretend all was fine before just because some pet had a 500AC buff on it (like that matters with the monster amounts of AC pets had to begin with) in a parse. It's not the only parse that was made back in the old mega-thread btw, and every single parse pointed in the exact same direction. The only thing that was lacking in that thread was comparative parses made by mages themselves. Why that is, I don't know. Maybe you knew what the results would be (if you know anything about DI spreads, AC, and tanking you would) or you were too busy chain reporting Bedavir to do parses of your own.
Edit: Denial's parse was pre-nerf, not post, so this paragraph I had here is moot. *waves hand* This is not the paragraph you are looking for. As to why pet owners didn't post their own parses: I can't speak for anyone else, but at the time, Daegun was insisting that he was not calling for nerfs, just pointing out that warriors needed a boost & should get smoother incoming dps, similar to pets. I agreed with this & had no reason to try to prove him wrong. A little time passed, & now here we are...
The only point being lost is by the defensive magicians. Back then, the theme of the thread was the effect of AC on pets (it was released right after the AC formula was given). So, guess what. I stacked AC on the pet. I used the warrior as a comparison, using all of the AC and mitigation I could because people complained "that's not realistic, no one ever standz around and gets hitz". I do this, and more shouts of unfair whatever slurs towards me. It's funny too, the people shouting have provided no data at all other than "this feels brokensobad." You're not even doing what the devs have requested of you as a class. Do you have any pre-nerf controlled parses to offer? Guess what, that was the one I had. From a thread that went off of AC returns for NPCs and pets. There's no agenda. I don't have any other data to pool from, and obviously everything that I did was transparent, thus your ability to try to say that I hate your babies. So, THIS time, I again used those SAME abilities. You know, a then and now... except I added in the new Defensive Proficiency, and it shows. Also, THEN I had a GROUP pet focus, EM15, clearly stated. NOW I had a raid focus, EM18 clearly stated. Please, if people post data, try to use it before you just dismiss it. Cry foul all you want, it's just information. I did THE SAME thing this time as last time. It is a true side by side comparison, except I got bored and stopped at 1370 seconds or so instead of 2770 seconds or so. You guys like to think that you should be able to do everything by yourself. Get over it. With a real healer, these pets are still going to tank anything. I easily killed a named. Sorry you won't be able to kill every named you want to, I guess.
A comparison of tanking abilities which doesn't consider ANY activated abilities, or stances, lol... A wizard merc does more damage than me, too. If I don't hit any buttons.
Tweelis, I have no idea why you chose to go fight level 98 rain of fire trash mobs to demonstrate current tanking ability. Are those from test server? Do you not have cotf expansion? I'm not so interested personally to find out how well a level 100 player with T1-T2 gear and rII spells does vs level 98 mobs from last expansion And secondly, I dunno why everyone is jumping on Denial. I really appreciate him parsing actives, I am just confused, it appears you are using the same "group geared warrior", yet your first parse showed him at 8400ac and the second at 10k ac. Why the difference? And EM18 is a raid focus. So his group geared warrior, for the most part is out-tanking the raid pet, considering actives. Unless I am reading the graphs wrong. His DI spread is spiky, but he is avoiding 10% more hits and his average hit taken is much lower. Therefore, a raid pet on the strongest pet class of the best tanking pet type, appears to not be able to match a group warrior when active defensives are in play? You took a raid-geared tank (which is what EM18 is) and killed a named from old content. Mages can solo well. Mages also aren't asking to be able to kill every named they want to, because they can't even right now on live, they can't kill any named solo from current content. I understand your mage hate though, with pet classes jumping on ya
All I was pointing out was that the parse of an earth pet w/cleric 3rd spire and various warrior discs/auras/abilities does not equal what a molo earth pet can do. Period. If you want to compare two things, then compare two things. But considering 99.9% of molo magicians will not have a cleric 3rd spire and assorted warrior stuff, then that should not be counted in a graph when the topic of discussion is the molo earth pet. And I am not saying that the removal of that stuff will make an earth pet tank three times worse than a warrior. I do not know how much benefit the 3rd spire and other stuff had on the pet. But it is moot, because the baseline comparison and parse should never have had that stuff in the first place. I have not been able to go on test server yet to parse- mother and sister flew into town for the wedding shower yesterday, so I have been occupied with family and wedding stuff. I hope that this stuff will still be on test server after this weekend, so I can spend a little time on Tue and Wed to see the changes for myself. I will always maintain- magicians are a solo class, whether non mages want to believe it or not. They have been a solo class since the inception of the game. Our pets can be nerfed and changed to bring balance, I am fine with that. But we still need to have that ability to solo current content like we always have and could. And talented skilled magicians should be able to solo current named, like we always have and could.
He did compare the discs and activated abilities what are you talking about and so did I . This is the worst way of trying to deny something the developers are not going to listen to anything you guys are saying when you still refuse to believe the truth of the matter and that controlled parses were done both standing there doing nothing and CYCLING ALL DEFENSIVE DISCS AND AA. In fact the parse you are refering to just a couple posts afterwards had both passive and every tool at his disposal used. On both the pet and the warrior. Whatever he used on either toon as long as he used the same stuff on the other one it wouldn't matter if they both had the ngreth mega buff it still makes it a 100% accurate base comparison.
Last time I posted unbuffed AC, this time it was the buffed ac (w/ Cert, and spam warrior AC abilities-- it was an average though, sometimes can push a little more out depending on what discs are active because of stacking). I just clicked everything off, and he now has 8430 AC unbuffed. Other than that, yes. You are interpreting it all correctly. I can still molo Roon with earth pet easily enough, the RS pet is getting thrashed by the wolves in EWK, but it doesn't feel class crippling. Just like with most other classes, if you get a real healer, there's really nothing this pet in its current state won't tank that is meant to be tanked by a pet (left that clause in for War, since someone always chimes in about it). Either way, I am just putting up data, it's not my call on whether this is too far, or too little. That's up to the devs. Trying to work on a parse on Roon without the warrior AC abilities, or cleric third spire. I killed him about 200s shy of the previously parsed times. Waiting for repop. After I get this parse done, will probably start doing some pet by pet comparisons across the different elements for DPS. Someone else did the tanking I think. That'll probably be this evening though. I got stuff to do.
You are a gentleman and a scholar, ty And yeah, the RS issue is because they nerfed the base ac and hp. That's not the problem, the problem is that if you have an EM focus (which everyone does), any swarm or regular pet you summon gets a +hp item equipped, which as you know when you get a +hp buff, it doesn't fill your hp. So the pets are coming out with like 60%ish health. And less overall health and ac. So they are going splat. I bet this will change, because RS pets were never an issue prior. I am glad you can still molo Roon, but in my opinion it appears the nerfs are still overboard. A group geared warrior intelligently using cooldowns is out-tanking a raid-geared pet. Now, one could argue that pets are supposed to be worse than player tanks, but I've never heard this from the developers. From everything I heard from devs, player tanks are the benchmark for balance, and if pets are not matching them, pets are now underpowered.
Form what I am reading of what has been posted form soe people. While tanks are the benchmark for balance. Pets where never ment to replace them in groups.(or let one of the 3 main pet classes go out and molo current content names). They where ment to let the pet classes have a way to solo/molo xp on their own and farm trash mobs for stuff. There is 2 ways you can make it so a tank is always a better chose then a pet in a group(no matter how good or bad the tank is). 1st. you can buff the tanks up to the level that pets where.(but as has been said by soe if you do that then you have to rebalance the game round the new tank levels) 2nd. you take the pets down so that they are just under what the tanks are currently.(now how far down they need to be taken is up for grabs).
Thank you for your parses, but I do take issue with this part for 2 reasons. First off RS pets are a big part of magician DPS that need to survive both AE ramp and spell AEs to be effective on raids. And our highest DPS spell by far needs 15 living pets on the mob to be effective. So these two spells are a huge part of magician DPS, and really need to be changed if pets are going to loose survivability on raids. Regardless of tanking ability in the group game, this cripple magician raid DPS when both our and other classes swarm pets are dying way too often.
Tanks have not never been "always a better choice" than a pet for groups. They aren't now, and they won't be after the changes. They're suited for different tasks.
