TDS Raid Event 3: Principal Vicarum Nomia - Progression!

Coruth, you're are wasting your time trying to have any reasonable debate with battleblade. He is incapable of seeing other views. He only knows how to project his opinions as facts or laws of the universe. Take EGL for example. He doesn't agree with the site. Which is perfectly fine. Instead of stating his opinion one time and moving on he has chosen like in the past to crusade that only his view is the right view and any who disagree he feels the need to project his opinion behind cliches and obscure references that if you don't follow his logic you are wrong.

When a person agrees with me on a fundamental point:

and an individual involved in the decision making posts an acknowledgement that there was an alternative.

Beimeith said, "...ask for actual proof like a ss..."

Suggesting that one objection to what happened is silly:

when there were multiple objections raised.

And then leveling

When in fact I've posted:
"Players don't get to decide if recovering via endless DA, pet tanking, kiting, or range attacking is a valid method of beating an event. Players have opinions. Until SOE expunges a win or a guild self reports a bugged win, it's a win."

Is grasping and not trying to have a reasonable debate.

Seriously when a moderator on that site posts, "...ask for actual proof like a ss..." indicating that IHO there was an alternative to asking for full raid logs any "debate" is over and we are down to

facesaving arguments - yeah but everybody does stuff. Whoops time for an /cough obscure argument -

Wait! That also sounds like agreement with me that unlike players SOE is not partisan (and they have investigative tools self appointed vigilantes can only dream about).

and apologies not posted like, "Yeah I could have insisted that screenshots would have been sufficient and demanding logs was over the line. And if accuracy and timeliness was as important as the OP indicated in the initial post we could have updated sooner. My bad."

EGL providesa valuable service but in this case they dropped the ball hard...twice. The only way it doesn't happen again is an admission that it was unreasonable,
Beimeith said, "...ask for actual proof like a ss..." is a better than nothing start.

Neither you, nor anyone else deserves an apology from us, because nothing wrong was done.

The ordering of words in my sentence has no underlying meaning of which method I preferred. I did, in fact, prefer the option of logs which is why I continued on by saying that "It's pretty difficult to fake a full log with damage." I also know that not all of the corpses contain items and can therefore poof before a SS can be taken.

I therefore gave two suggestions: a ss OR a log, and for her to use her best judgement, which I trust. She choose to ask for the logs, and I consider that an acceptable choice on her part and support her decision.

You can disagree with that if you like, but do not attempt to twist what I said to appear to support your argument, because I do not.

My main reason for even posting the pictures of the conversation is because of how...poorly...people have been acting in this thread. Well, that and because I called it before she even -made- the post and I like being right. Mostly that last one...thanks for being predictable~

You acknowledged ss would be adequate proof in your png. Yet you defend the OP's totally unreasonable demand for full raid logs.

There's a time to have someone's back (when they are right) and there's a time to support them but acknowledge error.

I said to someone after MS started lagging that we could expect shenanigans from EGL. That's how they did things. Sometimes I don't like being right.

BTW when discussing (from that png) other people, stupid, and arrogant y'all don't have to look very far. EGL was about as arrogant as I've ever seen and I'm including Fires of Heaven. You sure fixed their wagons now didn't ya. (When you dislike certain guilds and you maintain a non-partisan website its best not to post how you really feel).

BBTW - sure am glad I never sent you anything private like logs, an email, or chat. Would hate to see it posted publicly if my dog ate my internet and you couldn't ask my permission or have it shared.

1) I said EITHER would be adequate proof. Why would I not defend what I, myself, said?

2) Mykaylla was getting complaints about guilds getting credit when they didn't beat the event, (I did too after that conversation), which prompted Mykaylla to verify them. Mykaylla is not now, nor has ever been, nor likely ever will be (I've asked multiple times) apart of MS. How is something Mykaylla, who is not affiliated with MS any more than any other guild she talks to people in, "shenanigans" because of MS?

3) Since you're wrong about both 1 and 2, you're wrong about being right, but then, Cor pointed that out already.

And since now you are just wasting my time by ignoring what I say, I'm going to stop responding to you. Believe what you like, but you are entirely wrong.

Protip: There are other methods of contacting people besides the internet. Who do you think told Crystilla that her internet is down and she is ill? (And how do you think -anyone- even knows those things if they can't contact her?)

1) You said ss was adequate. How then were full raid logs, especially when some posted objections necessary?

2) I'm given to understand that Mykalla has been known to raid with MS on occasion. Not that a free trip or concert tickets would ever influence anybody. I'm given to understand that MS members help make decisions in EGL. For example, according to a png, this one.

BTW, raising this point is an effort to rechannel the discussion to ground where you think you have as case. Good strategy when you've admitted ss were adequate and (true but not admitted by you) any reasonable person would have EGL back off the full log demand (or better yet, not made that demand at all).

I know I'm breaking what I said about not responding, but meh:

1) Already answered. Reread it again and/or ask someone else to help you until you understand that.

2) Mykaylla has been known to raid with at least 6 guilds (that I personally know of), but I don't assume everything/anything she does is influenced by them. I don't even know what you are talking about. Free trip? Concert tickets? Who is giving those away? No one in MS besides myself has any influence/say/input/etc. on the decisions of EGL.

I never, anywhere, said that she should have backed off asking for full logs. To say that is to blatantly misrepresent what I have actually said.

1) Already answered. You acknowledged in that png that ss were adequate proof. Therefore:
a. The OP should have requested ss OR full raid logs.
b. When objections to full raid logs were raised the less intrusive screenshot alternative should have been offered by EGL.

2. I assume Mykaylla is heavily influenced by MS members who participate on EGL. Nods when they say a guild is stupid or arrogant (see png), laughs at their jokes, pays guilds back for slights when it looks like there's an opportunity, doesn't update achievements no one is questioning which would show how far MS is lagging, etc. A dependable "ally". An ally one might back up even if they made an unreasonable demand when there was a less intrusive ss alternative.

I corrected my awkward sentence. It's true you haven't acknowledged that you should have insisted ss would be enough. However sir, that's what you should have done.

1a) She did do that, she asked for logs.
1b) That is entirely your OPINION. It is not an absolute fact. I don't know what prompted her to ask for logs over ss. I don't even particularly care. The option was there for her to decide, and I said then I trusted her judgement, which I still do.

2) She nodded because she agreed with me, (shocking, I know), not out of some sycophantic compulsion. Calling out a guild by name is against the forum rules, so I blacked it out. If I were to name them, I can say with confidence that most people would agree that that guild was both of those things. (Here's a hint: that guild no longer even exists so it isn't even related to this discussion, I was using them as a reference). She was laughing at her own joke, which you can't see because I blacked it out.

Paid back for a slight? What are you even talking about? Who was slighted? How did she "pay them back?" The only achievement she mentions in that conversation is one that CANNOT be used as verification because, and I quote: "But its an achievement that you can apparently get while still failing." There is no "achievement no one is questioning" that she "doesn't update" anywhere in there.

Stop making stuff up.

1a) But she didn't say a ss was an acceptable alternative despite you stating that in the png before the ultimatum was posted.

1b) Even you stated "ss or full raid log". It might be an opinion but its apparently an opinion you shared.

There no question in my mind after reading that png who is encouraging and who is being an /cough enthusiastic underling.

You are entitled to circle the wagons, not apologize, not say it won't happen again. And people are entitled to say why it was an avoidable (it was - you yourself said a ss would be adequate) abuse.

I'd like to think:
EGL has learned from this
SOE will make all raid events an achievement in the future and handle changes to achievements in case of exploitation
And EGL will return to a secretarial role reporting progress in a timely fashion instead of taking on a self-appointed vigilante role and demanding information guilds keep private (especially when an administrator says there a less intrusive ss alternative).

Not confident that will happen. Just hopeful.

1a) She didn't have to. For whatever reason, she decided to go with just logs. I don't know why, I don't care why. That's what she went with. I didn't say she HAD to accept both, or that she had to offer the choice of either. Hell, I didn't even say she HAD to accept either of those. I said "proof LIKE a ss or full log." They were merely examples of possibilities for her to consider. The choice was always up to her.

1b) And the fact that I continued to talk about logs and not SS, shows my opinion was leaning more toward the latter and not the former.

You need to re-read it again then. She asked me what I thought about the possibility of illegitimate kill reports being given. I said to use her best judgement and gave a suggestion what to do IF she thought it was warranted. I'd hardly call that "encouraging" her to do anything. I'd call it "I was being lazy and letting her handle it because I was busy preparing to take a final exam."

Learned what? That people reacted even more poorly to something that really isn't a big deal than I anticipated? That people here have so much cognitive dissonance that they can both trust me enough to run unsigned executable programs on their machines, but also believe (or at least accuse) me of having some sinister plot to steal sooper sekret strats, (after SoE already posted the full details of the raid)?

They won't ever do that. They barely have enough resources to put out a half- expansion. To think they would have the support staff to take care of issues like this is unrealistic in the extreme.

As long as the updates are faster and more frequent than a Quarken front page update, I consider it being done in "timely fashion." He sets my standard for that. There is nothing vigilante about not including kill updates for raids that guilds did not, in fact, kill. If additional verification is required to ensure that in a particular instance, than so be it.

Mykaylla is an administrator too, as is Deillusional. That's why they can both do updates. Mykaylla has kindly taken over the mantle of doing most of the updating. Deillusional mostly just fixes the bad Merloc coding, and I mostly just take the blame for everything and make sure the bill is paid on time.

1a) She didn't have to. She didn't have to demand full raid logs when you mentioned proof and ss in the same sentence. She didn't have to insist on only full raid logs. She didn't have to.

Lets see we could do A or horribly invasive B. I know - let's do B. I like exploring the logs of competing guilds. Woot!

1b) The fact that you continued talking about logs shows that you encouraged an intrusive approach when you knew there was a less intrusive ss alternative. It also demonstrates your influence over the eager to please you resource.

I don't think members of blackedoutguild given demonstrated arrogance in the past and current progression disappointment are above questioning how guilds beat events to stir up issues. I predicted it. Private raid info is not just private because of leaking strats to a guild that needs help with an event - you know it, I know it, and your guild knows it.

I think SOE is very likely to list each raid event as a separate achievement in the future. Many of them already are. This is not the same as having a top performer LDoN list. I certainly favor that but agree SOE probably wouldn't see that as a priority worth spending manpower on.

Still, if they do each raid as a seperate achievement, alter that should they discover an exploit, etc. then partisan Raid Guild Progression sites are confined to a reporting role and won't be as able to leverage their position to abuse players and conduct fishing expeditions in their logs.

If SOE does that and EGL hears a he said/she said rumor then the correct action is to report the possible exploit to SOE, monitor the achievement of the guild in question, and change your record when it's apparent there needs to be a change. No need to cruse the neighborhood looking for bad guys (what's in your pockets??!!) - that's not nor should it ever be your role.

Battleblade..... I hearby Dub you for the rest of this thread BrokenRecord.

1) You seem incapable of getting it through your head that the Log Idea had nothing to do with strategy. All the necessary strategy any top guild needs is already preposted in beta forums. ROI just did a twitch feed. And I havent seen the 3 (4 based on insaneox?) on TDS5 post a win this week have you?

2) You might feel that no outside site should even bother trying to verify truth, just saying it 20 times doesn't make you more correct. Loudest is not Rightest. You are a tiny tiny tiny minority in EQ. You are even a minority in your own guild.

3) You have yet to clue in or respond to the point, that either Beimeith is Doctor Evil attempting to take over the EQ world on behalf of Wizard101 Cabal or MastersSecret Cabal, or he's not. And if Beimeith, is Doctor Doom, Gameparse is a far more efficient way then EGL.

4) People didn't like the Log Verification because of Privacy Concerns, not because of Strat Concerns, or because they didn't like Verification. Sony isn't going to do it. Period. I'd call you delusional to think the skeleton crew at EQ was going to handle verifications, but that would insult Delussional.

Thought this would be a good place to announce our (legit) Nomia win last night /rawr

also, IBTL

Congrats! and me too! =)

rabble rabble rabble

lock it, burn it to the ground

Grats @ Fu

Preliminary congrats until I see logs or a S.S.
Just sayin =p

Do promises of achievement link and not care enough to send them work???

I will just ignore this and in 3 weeks give everyone a ninja congrats!