TDS Raid Event 3: Principal Vicarum Nomia - Progression!

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Mykaylla, Dec 2, 2014.

  1. Zentara Augur

    Didn't you hear? The new Gamparse remotely posts your logs straight to Beimeith's server. He can now see the full strats (including transcripts from vent/ts) from anyone who uses Gameparse!
    Obiziana, Axxius and Silv like this.
  2. Karthos Augur

    class need A? Rangers
    class need B? Rangers

    Right, Robnie?
  3. Beimeith Augur

    That's the conversation that led to Mykaylla asking for logs, (and the ensuing discussion of the hilarity of autocorrect, but that's another story). Of course, this won't stop the conspiracy theorists who think it is all my evil plot.

    Sigh, I wish you hadn't said that. I know that you are pointing out the fact that if I was really out to get everyone sooper sekret strats, I wouldn't need to ask for logs, I could just program GamParse to do it, which everyone trusts me enough to run on their machines, but all it is going to do it make people think I did, and I didn't. For one, it would be illegal, (as is DDoSing websites, which I was also accused of, lol) and I wouldn't break federal law for a video game, and two, Gam and Rumstil ( both have access to the sourcecode on GitHub and can verify I didn't.

    As for being slow to updating, Crystilla already explained why Mykaylla has been gone for a month, and I've been gone for 3 weeks dealing with family issues and other things. I'll see about getting it all up to date in the next day or so.
    Elricvonclief likes this.
  4. Coruth Augur


    The conspiracy stuff in this thread is just driving me nuts, and how illogical it is.

    Everyone wants same goal. A fair ranking system for e**** and recruitment and bragging and competition.

    But this thread let's Sony Off the hook for making a Bugged TDS expansion that
    1) Had Chests spawn on Wipes and gave wins for losses
    2) Allows Bugged Healing from Temple for Unflagged people to heal and avoid AEs (this would be an exploit)
    3) Had an overtuned Raid in Tita's ghost that led to DA Tanking and Pet Tanking.

    All issues that were brought up in Beta and never fixed.

    Instead this thread has become the hydra and spawned debates on Methodology of Ranking. With Maeryn posting her system as much as she can. Battleblade posting only Sony should decide. Battleblade's GL disagreeing spawning an epic fight between Axxius and Qulas over what is legitimate kill. And people who disliked the whole reasoning why War & 1-Offs not being listed as progression using their disagreement to argue for their system.

    All the why insulting people who do updates, and were just trying to fix stuff to besmirch peoples motives/characters to get their way. It's EQs version of politics. If you can't argue positions argue people.
    Elricvonclief likes this.
  5. Insaneox Augur

    Your correct on fact it's not strat that wins these events it's pure execution! That being said we beat event 4 last night and made it look easy. Took awhile to get everyone on same page but moving on to event 5 next.

    No super secret strat did exact same thing we had been doing just did it as team.
  6. Battleaxe Augur


    This conspiracy thread (guilds are faking their progress!!!!) and a 3rd party tracking site overreaching itself - demanding raid information all raid guilds to my knowledge have long kept private, appointing itself rather than SOE as the decider of what constitutes a win is unbelievable.

    OMG some #10-50 guild might be temporarily shown as beating a middle event is generally the case...someone spills the beans. Therefore logs.

    Not SOE "invading (not guaranteed by SOE) guild privacy" as they demonstrated by quoting chat during the Conquest/Sleeper situation (SOE has tools and the right to use them a vigilante can only dream about), a moderator associated with a guild that has slipped a lot in the rankings casting doubt on the validity of posted rankings and freezing updates - a fan of a football team that blows their whistle from the bleachers and expects the official scoreboard to reflect their preferences - Defensive Holding!

    Sorry fan - you don't get a whistle. No standing in events undetected, no reading guildchat, no browsing guild forums, no checking our personal safety equipment for you Mr. or Mrs. Partisan Fan and not an employee of the publisher.

    All supposedly for accurate and up to date tracking (tracking being different than judging and deciding).

    YET with all the emphasis on accurate and up to dateness what do we actually get? My dog ate my internet. I'm too busy. I could update everything other than Event 3 I suppose - but I wouldn't want to step on anyone's toes. A website that was not accurate (it didn't show event completion submitted and not disputed by anybody) or up to date.

    We went from Omg, the Raid Guild Progression Chart is on Fire (with an Ultimatum no less) to Huh? Updates? Updates????? Over night.

    And a has slipped in the rankings guild was spared the embarrassment and hit to recruiting of seeing another guild place #2 in the progression for a few weeks (and enjoying that every raid guild's posted progress was placed in unofficial suspicion - if we're not doing well you guys might be cheating!!).

    Coincidence? Are you kidding???

    Are we past all this? I hope so. The site has been (IMO reluctantly) updated and for now no one is insisting on a fishing expedition search without a warrant and without a policing role in the first place. EGL has gone back to reporting the official results.
  7. Cicelee Augur

    I wonder how different this thread would have been if Mykalla and Beimeith were members of ROI. Or if the original poster was Qulas or a ROI officer...

    I also have yet to see anyone comment on how to prove a legit guild victory on any event that is rumored/known to be bugged. If logs are unwelcome, then what is considered reasonable proof? Then again this thread has become mind numbing since around page seven or so, so maybe it was posted and I just missed it...
  8. Battleaxe Augur

    If players from any guild demanded private logs and foot dragged on updating the site with events not in dispute with anyone my reaction would be the same.

    Players don't get to decide if recovering via endless DA, pet tanking, kiting, or range attacking is a valid method of beating an event. Players have opinions. Until SOE expunges a win or a guild self reports a bugged win, it's a win. SOE has in fact expunged wins in the past - Conquest vs. Sleeper, Soul of the Shadow using CoH to leapfrog a another guild to a raid target, using alts to avoid a lockout, Earring of Sad Exploitation, ...

    Guilds have self-reported bugged wins, unintended shortcuts, double chests, mobs showing that they are holding a raid drop weapon, ... 54 players generally will not keep such things under their hat forever.

    Besides - it was Event #3. Bragging rights for a #10 guild perhaps but several guilds were well past Event #3. When you have to beat an event multiple times to get flagged for an event further down the road quickly the odds of bugged winning being your strategy is microscopic. Guild #10 was not about to leverage a misreported Event #3 "win" into beating the expansion leadership. The uncharacteristic "win" without subsequent wins stood out like a sore thumb.

    In reality there was only one (Afaik) guild suspected of reporting a bugged win as a win. And when asked the confusion was cleared up. There wasn't an accuracy "fire" there was a call all TDS raid achievements into question and conduct a fishing expedition opportunity. EGL's update foot dragging showed that accurate and up to date was conveniently situational. An emergency when that suited them and when we get around to it when that was advantageous.

    SOE can help by having each raid event be a separate achievement, investigating exploits, and adjusting raid achievements as needed.

    EGL can help by sticking to it's secretarial role instead of putting on a (inevitably partisan) vigilante uniform.

    BTW, grats MS. Hopefully your recent achievement will be posted in a timely manner and no one will attempt to call into question its validity (unless its sending their "evidence" to SOE privately - not that I'm suggesting there's any such allegation).
  9. Maeryn Augur

    Dec 2nd so that narrows it down to one guild as all but one guild claiming a win on or before that day is listed on EGL:

    We (name of guild) beat Nomia on live on 12/02 legitimately. I was in raid. It was a bit of a challenge, but we figure some things out and only had 2 toons die on phase 3 (when death adds spawn). We had a bugged win before that....

    ...people can remove whatever they want form logs. I've no idea if (name of guild) is sending full logs to EGL.

    p.s. Nomia isn't the only event that can bug win, giving a chest and lockout without beating it. I think at least 3 event so far can do that.


    So 35 days after that conversation between Beimeith and "who are you and what have you done with mykaylla" what has been resolved? Using a really bizarre system of someone claiming to have attended a successful raid I've listed that win since getting that PM on Dec 12.
  10. Battleaxe Augur

    Immediately report what you think is the case with any evidence you might have to SOE please. And if you don't mind, don't discuss possible exploits publicly both to avoid casting suspicion on the raid achievements of others and to suggest exploitation opportunities may exist and encourage some players to seek them out.

    Nothing has been resolved.

    Hopefully attempting to call into question the achievements of raid guilds publicly and demanding private raid info attempting to create a precedent for partisan players to decide what a valid win is instead of SOE has been discouraged. Both actions are unsportsman-like meta gaming.

    SOE can help by having each raid event be a separate achievement, investigating exploits, and adjusting raid achievements as needed.

    EGL can help by sticking to it's secretarial role instead of putting on a (inevitably partisan) vigilante uniform.

    That to me sounds like sensible resolution.
  11. Kiillz Augur

    THE REACTION would have been the same regardless of who. Demanding logs from any guild for said win is inapporpriate, who makes the OP the one to dignify the win if they get logs?? their opinion is no greater then anyone else posting or not posting here. So not sure where your going with that .
    Axxius likes this.
  12. Cicelee Augur

    Here is where I was going-

    ROI is clearly the top guild, no question. They have defeated all the events first before any other guild. They definitely have a strategy that works for their guild, and they execute that strategy extremely well.

    There was accusations in this thread about a possible motive for the OP requesting guild logs to gain/learn strategies for event 3. And while the OP (IIRC) stated that s/he did not belong to a current raid guild, the OP appears to be part owner/leader/maintainer of the EGL website, which also has as owner/leader/maintainer a wizard from a high end raid guild. So more accusations were made that the OP would share these guild logs with the wizard so that his high end raid guild could defeat event 3.

    If Mykalla/Beimeith were members of ROI, or Qulas (or another ROI officer) made the original thread... then there really would be no motive for them to gain/learn strategies for event 3. ROI had already defeated the event, and it was probably in full farm mode for them when the thread was created. Or if it was not in full farm mode, they were comfortable and confident enough in their own guild strategy that they did not need to see how others had won the event.

    Still wondering what the more vocal voices on this thread, including some that have recently posted on the thread, feel would be appropriate and legitimate "proof" of a guild's victory on an event... if it is considered guild logs are not appropriate.

    IMHO until SOE creates something similar to what EGL does, you can never really have legitimate proof. You have to use the scout's honor and just trust others. Eventually if a guild is lying, it would come out. Then the community/individual can determine how egregious of a situation it is.
  13. Battleaxe Augur

    Especially when pique over people taking EGL to task for not listing PoWar and one off raid events, perceived arrogance by others, shrill unsubantiated acusations that those cheaters are probably worse than the other cheaters we agree must cheat, recognition that the allegations were he said/she said and embracing vigilante mode anyway plus Beineith suggesting a screenshot would be adequate and since wouldn't be intrusive enough ignored motivated this fiasco.

    I never would have asked for email (too intrusive) - but to see an actual record of why such a thing could be proposed (pique plus rumor and innuendo plus a dislike of some unnamed guilds), how an alternative was noted and ignored, and how a technically savvy individual wouldn't note that global search and replace can quickly modify a subsequent win to provide "evidence" that a bugged win was legit.... WOW. Conspiracy theory no longer. They actually discussed it. You do it and I'll tell people it was OK (when it was not OK).
  14. Kiillz Augur

    and my answer remains the same. (and NO ONE questions ROI) I dont care if Beimeith Bengalee Shmid Qulas Savager Hekaton or my buddy Quarken asked.....the notion is still the same. All due respect to them, NO one is beyond reproach. Logs SHOULD not have to asked for or required or ask guilds to break their privacy policies to appease one s opinion of a valid win. Yes there was some notion to which you speak of, but REGARDLESS of what was behind the request in its origin, it was STILL wrong to ask. Period. Logs were NEVER the answer PERIOD to resolve what the OP s "issue" was for they can be tweaked and altered as easily as a bugged win. The point is moot here.
    Imrahil and guado like this.
  15. Battleaxe Augur

    I listed 6 or 8 abuses that could happen as a result of a guild acquiring logs. Guilds don't expell members for sharing private information on some kind of random whim - leaking strats is not the only reason logs aren't shared.

    In that png appearing above Beimeith says, "...ask for actual proof like a ss or a full log." [BA: bold emphasis is mine]

    I prefer SOE to make all raid events achievements in the future and to modify those achievement in case of exploit or bugged win. But until that occurs whatever proof of a guild's victory was acceptable 2 years ago (officer? submitting ss and a kill timestamped entry from a log?) should have sufficed in this instance. Every submission, not just a bugged win, could be fake or an outright exploit.

    My reading of that png has blackedoutname getting all self righteous and indignant, Beimeith kinda knowing what reasonable was (ss), but willing to sit down with a bag of popcorn and watch the show. Beimeith says, "...ask for actual proof like a ss..." speaks volumes.
  16. jiri_ Augur

    This -measuring contest, like all others in Everquest history, will ultimately be detrimental to everyone involved.
    Obiziana and Taiqwon like this.
  17. Battleaxe Augur

    Although, sometimes a few entries from a log is preferable to a screenshot:eek:
  18. Tornt New Member

    I'm sad that this thread is still going on.
    Zentara likes this.
  19. Coruth Augur

    Sigh Battleblade you are the single biggest broken record on the entire forums.

    That is saying something too. Should warriors dual wield tank?

    No one is disagreeing with you that EGL should not have asked for logs. For many reasons, because guild chat should remain private.

    My sole point, is the conspiracy angle that people floated that Beimeith wants them to help his guild with strategy are beyond stupid. They are in line with George Bush ordered 9-11. All from a guy who I guarantee 10+ people in your guild run software he had a hand in developing on thier machine.
    Bad Decisions don't have to conspiracy/bad motives to be bad. That call against the Lions was horrible. It wasn't a conspiracy for the cowboys to win.

    And again, battleblade. You are a member of a Guild who posted on their website "First Legit Tita Kill". So knock EGL all the while for trying to be the one who says what is "Legit" or not. But Triton does the same darn thing. Everyone does. And Sony doesn't.

    TDS is broken.
    This thread is broken worse.
    Obiziana and Elricvonclief like this.
  20. Battleaxe Augur

    This would be a good place for you to have stopped.

    Kindly remember, Beimeith said, "...ask for actual proof like a ss..."
    An innocent enough request. Something guilds have likely complied with in the past and something EGL likely accepted in the past.

    and said, "...or a full log."

    Now why I might ask would anyone encourage asking for a full log? Come on. Give me a not stirring up trouble reason to ask for traditionally held private raid information. BTW unless they've changed things MS will kick you if you share raid info too. It's not an "error" a longtime raider would innocently make. "Oh, I didn't know raid logs were private!" says the ex-member.

    I am a member of Triton, I didn't post that.

    I have stated that IMO "Players don't get to decide if recovering via endless DA, pet tanking, kiting, or range attacking is a valid method of beating an event. Players have opinions. Until SOE expunges a win or a guild self reports a bugged win, it's a win."

    I get asked what EGL could have done differently and I quote Beimeith:
    "...ask for actual proof like a ss or a full log,"

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