Pet Tanking Raid Mobs

They were a necessity for mages, which was a dying class before devs gave pets the ability to tank again in SoF after keeping them down from PoP to TBS, precisely due to the sort of mentality you're displaying here.

Pet Have been given more survivability only to survive AE/ rampage better in raid content, unfortunately side effect is they now can tank things they shouldn't be able to.

I don't know what the plan in those days was because EQ has changed devs several times and there was indeed a time when the mage class was driven to the ground by devs who thought pets had no place tanking, but that is not the philosophy behind pet balancing today.

Just look at the new proc earth pets received in RoF - completely worthless vs. AoEs / AoE rampage, 100% designed to be used in a pet tanking setting.

For those who don't know, the new ability that earth pets received gives it a damage reduction rune whenever it lands its root strike. Root doesn't land on raid bosses, making it 100% useless vs AoEs and AoE rampage from raid mobs. Not that earth pets were ever used in raids outside of raid tanking to begin with, but this says it all about what the role of pets are - it's useless to give earth pets a tanking proc were it not designed to tank content.

Don't BS about what the role of pets are.

They are designed to tank. Deal with it.

Tanks should be trying to get similar abilities as the pets get, instead of asking for nerfs to them. If tanks rec'd Aegis of Kildrukaun and iceflame type proc, THEN they would have the same AE avoidance abilities as pets receive, and then they can only blame themselves, for not using it, when they die to AE.

I'm onto you now Kearis! You getting the kitteh hammer!

A guildie suggested that if more than 10 people are on a mob's hate list, that the pet will not be able to hold aggro on that mob. I think this is the best suggestion so far. If the devs take the 'easy' fix by simply lowering a pet's hp/mitigation, pet owners will have to be more focused on pet survivabily than fulfilling thier other roles such as dps. So then, not only do you have a nerfed pet, you also cut out a very large percentage of thier dps.

I don't like raids being pet tanked as much as the next person, but I just hope devs look at the raid mechanics themselves instead of nerfing pets that don't need to be nerfed. Lowering pets survivablity will just create more issues.

Fact, Mobs will beat on players when they get in melee range if they are on the agro list.

You will have to range the entire fight and only use pets for melee.

A guild that is able to do this…Kudos, you have an alternate method.

I don’t see any issues with this as its players finding another way to overcome an event.

No need for change on any kind.

So true all a mage needs is a pet focus, and 1000's upon 1000's of aa's to make it viable. Glossed over as usual.

A history lesson for those that don't know the mage history and there are a ton of you from reading this thread. EQ to level 50. The level 49 earth pet was top.

Kunark brought level 60 and a level 51 earth pet and a level 57 earth pet, and of course the epic pet quest and the pet it provided (the 51 and 57 earth pets were a minor upgrade over the level 49 pet). Velious gave mages no new pet. SoL gave mages no new pets and the class was on the verge of extinction. 2 full expansions and no new pets and DD spells stagnated to the point that a druid had a larger nuke then mages, and has snare, root, heals etc.... Mages were hurting badly as I said.

PoP brought a new pet finally, but still the mage epic pet was as good in most situation due to the innate damage shield even though a much lower level pet. Mages were given a bone though the new mod rod we could summon and drop with no recast timer. How quickly some forget. Remeber the days of: mages don't DPS your job is to make rods and drop them for others. Oh we only need 1 mage they can make all a raid needs, so no others need apply. Forgotten by many but not those of us that lived through them remember it well. We weren't asked to dps, or use a pet. No just make mana for the 'important' people.

Then Gates of Discord launched and mage pets as you guess'd stagnated again, oh sure they gave a new monster summoning pet but it was not a real upgrade and our 4 main pets? Nothing new. Mages till SoF were hanging on with DPS if played wellm and that was the expansion mage pets finally got the upgrade they were long lacking, a real upgrade.

How easily those now complaining forget the holy trinity of healer, tanking, and slower. The 3 required classes. Those 3 are still required a pet may fill in for an event and the boards go nuts, but that is the exception and they acknowledge that, but it isn't enough. A pet must never fill in. Well get over yourself. A tank is still needed for almost every event, and your place in a raid is secure.

Mages have seen the nurf bat thrown at them numerous times and the class was about destroyed with no nuke upgrades, and pets stagnated. We have been there and we don't want it to happen again. Stop calling for mage pets to be nurfed, and yes that is all this thread is. A thinly and badly disguised call for mage pets to be weaked, and not be able to tank etc... in other words nurf them. That is against the rules of this board.

Calebe

not glazed over, the tanks that are being replaced with these pets have to have thousands and thousands of aa's too so aa's are irrelevant.

/sacasm on

Well, I then suggest that if more than 10 people are on a mob's hate list, that all tanks should be capped to my tank pet's dps levels (about 18k ish burst, and maybe 2-3k sustained). I think that a fully tier 4 VoA raid geared, equipped, max AA tank shouldn't be able to burst for more than 18k dps during a raid, and should only be able to sustain about 2-3k dps by themselves, without help and buffs and even with help and full support, raid buffs, etc, never get more than about 18k dps during a raid.

OH, and I'm not calling for a nerf, doing this, I'm just saying there is a situation that should be remedied, because as a TANK, you should not, under any circumstance, be able to fulfil a DPS role, ever, in any way, shape, or form during a raid... It's fine for group content though, if you can burst 50-60k dps and sustain 15-20k dps, I don't have a problem with that, so that's why I'm not calling for a nerf, because I don't mind what you can do in group content, just as long as you can't do it during a raid.

This is what I THINK the devs think and what I THINK the devs intend, so the way things should be. Never mind that the devs are the ones that design this game, and are the ones that have given tanks the tools to be able to do some moderate dps even (especially) during a raid and have the tools and abilities to STOP tanks from doing the dps they do.

/sarcasm off

I am being very sarcastic, but I do hope some people see my point. I want my guild's tanks to put out decent dps, to assist us in winning events, assist them with agro, and just plain kill mobs faster. Which is kind of exactly what SOME guilds do, for SOME mobs, to assist them in winning SOME events, by pet tanking CERTAIN mobs and cannot for the life of me understand why some people have a problem with this. It really is as dumb as me having a problem with the amount of dps a tank can do, if I did (I sincerely don't).

Tanks are not being replaced by pets. It the most absurd thing that keeps getting said over and over again in this thread. Nobody wants to pet tank. Unfortunately some guilds just don't have a choice if they want to beat an event like beast. Sorry that we suck so bad in your eyes but it is what it. Some of us would love to have the warriors/clerics/numbers/attention span/whatever the particular problem is that night so we wouldn't have spend 20-25 minutes screwing with it but we don't. Trust me on that.

Tanks are not DPS, they are fodder ment to keep the mob busy be it a Pet or Player. The key is to keep the tank alive and the tanks job is to keep the mob busy.

A Tank is a tank, player or pet. No change needs to be made other than the players need to work on skill and aa.

basically no, not even close

Pets tanking raid mobs is the equivalent to giving warriors a pet that can't take a hit, but does 140k dps. If a pet was out dpsing rogues, ber, wiz and everyone else based on cheesy in game mechanics or in general, such as a mob being a belly caster that can one round any any caster in range but the pet is immune to rampage and nearly every mob in an expansion was like that I'm sure there would be some really upset dps classes.

It would actually be really funny to see all these pet classes and dps players defending pet tanking get routinely out dpsd by a warrior or knight pet and then we could talk about the virtues of a pet replacing the soul purpose of those classes it was usurping. Especially if that pet was doing all this amazing dps after 1 focus item.

But I mean who cares if guilds use warrior dps pets to fill up a raid with warriors just for their pets because afterall it doesn't effect anyone else right?

i have only seen one event where a mage pet seemed to do better then then a real tank.
that said, all guilds will find rather different and "unique" ways to beat an event or mob - some definitely not the way the devs had designed things to be - ie ; pet pulling , swarm kiting , a sk kitting mobs in circles while the guild rezzes and saves a wipe. etc.

i hate when devs use the nerf bat on any class and have never asked that a spell / skill be removed just because either i couldnt do it or because i thought it shouldnt be able to do things that way.

we players are a rather ingenious lot and come up with a great many techniques (legit / not exploits) to beat the design of the developers.

I hate it even more when the devs use the Nerf bat based upon an agenda being pushed on them by players. Especially players in guilds with "perfect" raid rosters. Mind your own business and count your blessings?

There should be room for ingenuity in raiding for when circumstances are less than ideal. Otherwise unless that one perfect formula is precisely met, than expect most to fail. People won't stick around if failure is all that is in the cards.

We would have to add in some other mechanics that if your pet was DPSing than no spells can land on the mob from casters since that would be in the same ballpark that melee can't melee when a caster pet is on the mob. Would only be fair that if your melee pet was on the mob no casters can cast any spells on the mob. This would again lengthen the fight and basically render a type of DPS from doing their roles. If that was to happen I would ask the same question of the casters. Why do you care what another guild does? So to answer your question your right it doesnt effect me what another guild does. If I was in a guild that used that method of prolonging a fight rendering a bunch of classes useless I would be looking for a guild that fit my playstyle more. Same basic questions would apply to your theory as well. Why do you care what another guild does?

Amorcen

They already nerfed pet DA tanking, that is enough. If your tanks are so bad that you will give up all your melee dps so a pet can tank, then I don't know what to tell you.

It never ceases to amaze me how there is always always someone who whines and asks for nerfs. No one will ever learn that ALL NERFS DO IS MAKE ONE CLASS WORSE, NEVER DO THEY IMPROVE ANOTHER CLASS!! So you won't tank any better or do more dps to compensate for pets, all they will do is make pets worse.

Normally I do not agree with amorcen but what he is saying makes an obscene amount of sense. Yes, tanks in high end guilds get upset when their class is usurped in low tier guilds by pets but it does not effect you.

I am all for helping shiftee oppress the mid tier but this is not the way. If he were in a mid tier guild where the pets were usurping him I could understand. But as far as I know he is unguilded just trying to get nerfs. A raid loses so much by having a pet tank that if that is the avenue they choose, let them. Let them dig their own graves. Any good melee players or tanks they have will leave for greener pastures.

Though with the drive and ambition I have seen from melee dps in this game, many would happily sit their and afk autopfire.

Sounds like the game itself is fine but the attitudes of some of the more well known players who have since fallen on hard times needs some adjustment.

I would prefer raiding just be adjusted so anyone with a full raid with no boxes can do it. Instead of being forced to use lame tactics like pet tanking because bosses, adds, emotes, whatever else will wipe you super easy otherwise. Raiding is far too exclusive to guilds like RoI and MS and not nearly inclusive enough to the average joe guilds that will wipe 50+ times and eventually just give up and/or begin to have low attendance because they don't enough tanks, clerics, etc. and don't force their members to play a certain way.

Instead of forcing a guild to field 10+ tanks and healers why not just make it so people have to use their brains instead? Right now most raids are either easy or hard depending on what class makeup a guild has. Challenge should not mean its impossible with certain raid builds but easy with others. This is what leads to pet tanking in the first place. Because guilds without elite level builds cannot win raids otherwise.

This kind of stuff always leads to nerfs imo which is why so many in thread are calling people trolls and stuff because fix calls almost always becomes a nerf in the end. Either they need to fix tuning for raids or fix all pets or declare that pet tanking is a legit method of beating raids(as in they are designed for pet tanks to used and are not an exploit/cheat).