Pet Mitigation: Parses and Discussion

not just trying to prove. but HAVE . even parses here giveing big big edges to the warriors favor over the pet and the pet still came out on top. theres nothing more to trying to prove its all layed out here.

as for raw mitigation. No one should come out on top of warriors no pet/no other player controlled entity should mitgate better then a warrior given the warrior have gear and aas for the content his tanking.

this dosent mean there shouldent be vible options for other tanks to tank and survive. knight mitigate worse but make up for it with self healing in alot of the cases imo a little to well but they dont TAKE hits better then a warrior.

PETs do thats imo WRONG. Pet are just an extention of the class that summoned them they should not hold more power in an area then a full class that does nothin but concetrate on one spesific role and niche , in this case takeing hits /tanking

So, I wrote this post originally and it just ended up being a novel. So, in the spirit of not your monitors with a wall of text, I'll cut to the chase:

I made a post a while back about player pets as I was blown away by how powerful they were. However, after a while, I realized that they aren't the issue. The issue is that tanks suck. Bad. They just do. Their mitigation model is unpredictable and spits in the fact of everything that a tank should really stand for.

Solution: Increase player tank HP contribution from stamina and armor class return from shields - make shield block an innate ability for tanks (as in skill points from level 1) and then supplement with the AA later on. Also, follow the pet model that is working: large health bars that take predictable damage. Flatten out spikes and save some healers a heart attack.

Honestly, the best thing that could happen to tanking in this game would be to make AC mitigate a flat amount of damage (% wise since it scales well) from melee attacks. Either way, there are solutions that allow everyone to coexist peacefully.

Pet classes tend to always be strong - it's just the nature of having an extra "helper" built into your class. Don't punish the players who enjoy that but rather encourage those who rerolled them to avoid having to deal with the current tank system. We need to be finding way to increase the numbers of subscribers and that means not alienating the lifeblood of your social game play dynamics (tanks).

Just my two cents. I think most of you all want the same thing, and that is a happier and healthier EQ for all. Inequality will always exist amongst classes. The question just becomes how much inequality is too much. Answer that question honestly and we can begin to restore some quality of life for these newer up and coming player tanks who may just be what EQ needs to regain some traction in this increasingly fragmented MMO universe.

Yeah it's not a matter of "if" or even "to what extent".

It's a definite and it has been measured/proven extensively.
Repeatedly.
By multiple people at this point.

I still think the funniest 'find' is that the light blue sk pet mitigated better than the sk itself.

Not to say that it would tank better - but a naked sk pet taking less damage than the sk?

Lol

Warrior mitigation is not lacking, but there is something is rotten in Denmark.

Insofar as warriors aren't dying left and right, you can indeed make the case that mitigation is not lacking.

However, when you lack the self healing and utility of your fellow plate tanks - you can make the case that in current eq warrior mitigation is not comparatively good enough.

When you consider that pets (npcs) tank and mitigat circles around all player tanks by a huge margin - you can make the case that all PC tanks are not mitigating well enough by comparison.

Warriors will need some sort of love to put us on the level with knights. And all tanks will need a serious look with regards to pet tanking power so that balance is achieved. Tanks are arguably pretty well balanced for the content. Pets are in a universe of their own right now.

I agree and want to thank you for your effort and class Daegun. Warriors got No Time to Bleed and little did we know pets got No Time to Break a Sweat, but theirs is "sustainable" .

Most warriors do not want self healing (this includes me).

Bedavir, I honestly hope the answer to this is more PoWar type content. Maybe an expac where 30-50% can't even be doable by even a single "real group", let alone solo by a pet class. Oh with the addition that mercs get suspended as soon as you zone in. Basically a group zone with raid limitations. People who want challenge can have challenge and those classes that shine the most with challenge can have their day in the sun. Those who want to solo or have an imperfect group or just want to be casual can do that in the zones designed to allow it. Those zones will have reward that is in parity with the difficulty level, which is to say...lower.

Granted, that still might mean 70-50% content where a pet class will be able to solo it at some point while the content is still current. Maybe not right off but eventually since the point of EQ is to gain skills and equipment to beat content that you were not able to before. I have no idea if there is even that opening for compromise as that might mean a pet mitigates better in some cases. Sorry if that might not be singing your tune, but some of us are more into letting the content regulate the player classes as that allows content to exist for everyone, instead of pigeonholing people into just a few play styles. A blanket NPC mitigation nerf will have lots of collateral damage and major boosts to tanks will mean content must go up in difficulty across the board, which will impose limitations on the player base. If the goal is to have a pet class have zero chance to even molo a named, than you will get a lot of push back. Dealing in nothing but absolutes usually results in that.

I do not mind people soloing. I do not mind them moloing or soloing named. I believe very strongly that pets should always be a viable alternative for tanking. Pet tanking is 100% fine with me.

The only problem is the large discrepancy with how players and npcs mitigate damage. A pet shouldn't represent a safer or superior alternative under any circumstances, regardless of their drawbacks and limitations.

Mages can already solo the Judicator.

Mitigation is not the universal answer to everything. It's been proven twice recently with knights and now by pets. The ability to restore HP's lost during battle matters.

Read Shiftie's post again. Other than mitigation those are the reasons pets out perform many Warriors. Deal with reality kplsthnx~

Warlord's Tenacity
Rest
HP regen
bind wound
HP restoring procs
heal potions

Excuse you sir - we've had self-healing for some time. Just not enough of it to give us parity with knights and the lack is a factor in the situation with pets.

"Warriors build their strength and stamina to unheard-of levels, making them far hardier than any other class."

Must be a new definition of "hardier" - sickly, heals slowly, takes minutes to recover,...

When throw up a wall of pets is a common tactic should your Warriors die there's a significant problem (not only for Warriors but for knights too). Pets should not be saving the day for tanks. It should be the other way around.

It's like who do you want with you in a bar fight, the 300lb (hitpoints) dude who ,all the time, everytime whenever he gets hit, shrugs it off like your little sister just slapped him (DI distribution), or the 150lb (hitpoint) dude who can get rocked, but is light on his feet and can run for the door if nobody else jumps in.......

Hint: the 300lb dude is the pet.

Took my 100 wizard (with mercwar,) 100 magician (with merchealer) and 96 warrior (wizard merc) out tonight to ding the warrior to 97 so maybe I'll be ready by the time they fix warriors. Got four mobs in camp. Mercwar died. Wizards followed. Warrior died without getting a shot off. Guess who ended up killing all the adds? That's why I gave her the cleric merc.

LOL, "No time to break a sweat."

Last I checked everyone can solo the Judicator. Posting comments like the above seem to have only one intention.

The are not doing the job of the tank archtypes better, because a mage pet cannot snare better than a SK, no pet can heal better than a paladin, etc. Would you like to play a mage pet instead of your tank? You'd have like 10 ability buttons, and no melees could dps next to you. Would that be more fun to play? You seem to want to sacrifice all your tank's utility for it. If you want to pretend the pet is a player and compare it to your player tank, than include everything your player tank can do in the comparison.

You remind me of a feminist upset at the inequalities between women and men but cherry-picking only the best things that men get to demand. If you want to compare the pet to players, then compare everything the pet offers vs everything a player tank offers. Don't cherry-pick. One suggestion would be to invent a way to attach a numerical (-AC) value to what you think the ability to snare, heal, aoe taunt, etc is worth for a tank archtype (being able to snare = -150 AC. Being able to have melees dps beside you = -350 AC), and subtract it from your spreadsheet comparisons. Now the gap shrinks.

See what I mean about intangibles? "oh well I can't quantify them, so I pretend they don't exist"

It simply comes down to how well pets take the hits.

Do you feel pets should have the ability to take a hit better than a PC, or not.

Is that all tanking in EQ is? Why do the tank classes have any buttons? Jeez, and here I was thinking this game was complex

Maybe the problem is that the tank archtypes utility is so completely worthless (lol it's not but let's pretend it is worthless for the sake of argument)....the fact it doesn't fit on an AC comparison spreadsheet isn't even worth mentioning by them

But that's not really true, it's just clever debating on tanks part

Most of our tank abilities are straight up terrible. You have like 4 things that actually do anything noticeable, the rest are just kinda there, and give you .05% more mitigation so you have to use them anyways. Outside of last stand or tenacity, perhaps no time to bleed pets are tanking better than us passively and that's a little disheartening. All while the pet owner is churning out stupid amounts of DPS and massive amounts of utility, and are very noticeable and give pleasurable player feedback.

However, as a good tank you bring a lot to the table. You're forced to learn the stupidest of EQ mechanics that hardly any other class has to worry about. You have the highest gear requirements and you need to have a rough idea of how each dungeon is laid out. So you have a good baseline to be a good leader of the group, because you've probably ran the mission like 9 times to get an aug (Chelsith)

Just for the laughs, I will now post my very own opinion from the viewpoint of a mage:

I see myself as a DPS class, my pet being an extension to my own destructive capabilities. I am a utility-class and, if I happen to have my earthpet up, a chance to hold off a nasty mob with the help of a lot of healpower to buy as much time as it needs to get a real tank up and buffed.

Some may find it irritating, but whenever WARs hit the dust and the Raidleader goes "have a pet tank that mob" I sit here, grimacing and twitching and ask myself "what went wrong?"

Yes, I DO enjoy being able to tank with my pet. No, i DO NOT think that pets are so much overpowered. Warriors and Knights have always been the tanks of my choice whenever I HAD a choice. Unfortunately, in my experience, mages are often frowned upon by the three lynchpins of defense. This started with OOW as "that stupid pet does too much aggro" (as many tanks liked to state). With the implementation of the aggro-meter, it was revealed, that pets (with a lot of AAs, mind you) do create quite a lot of aggro. But even before that, I often found myself at the end of a plated, pointing finger whose owner claimed something around the lines of "Chose between me and that little aggro-Monster".

So you will bear with me that I have grown quite fond of my sturdy, reliable, wonderfully silent but always nearby elemental companion, who earned his name, Custodias, by keeping me safe and rescuing my scaly Little butt time and time again.

On the other hand, I do really enjoy a real tank, when I am not forced to run around with an earthpet, but am allowed to use my other elemental companions: both fire and water are the way to the DPS-oriented magician (in different settings). But with warriors lack of tankability (in comparison to the damage-output of the Mobs, not the "tankability" of our pets), I find myself more and more forced to use one and only one pet if I want to survive: Earth. The Tankpet. The sturdy and reliant bulwark of magicianhood.

Please, PLEASE help the tanking classes to get back into the role they were intended to fulfill. Not the role of a cannon foddering meatshield, but the mighty warrior or shining knight in sturdy armour, wielding their weapons with ease to protect their group or raid.

As I have literally no experience in coding, I am quite unsure how this could be accomplished, so bear with me if my ideas lack a bit of implementability:

- raise the coefficient between displayed and usable AC for all tanking classes
- increase the usefulness of a shield over two weapons
- allow the /shield command to work while other defensive mechanisms are being used (nothing beats the coolness-factor of a shieldwall, after all)
- give tanks (Warriors and Knights) an ability which enables them to somewhat compensate the strike-through of the recent bosses, so that their hard-earned secondary defensive mechanisms are not rendered worthless
- perhaps, all they need is a mechanism that enhances their survivability whenever they get low on HP, to give healers a chance to react

Tank classes that get one-rounded by some cncounters are a joke! And not a particularly funny one. If I was a tank class, I would vomit day and night over something like this!