Non-Raiding Necromancers

This thread was started by a necro comparing what you can do to what others can do. That's what got most of the non-necros here in the first place. It is entirely about what you can do relative to what others can do. Not in specific abilities or even mana regen as a whole, but DPS-wise. Yet in 39 pages there have been very few posts with specific DPS information. Mostly just pointless arguing over minutia and a lot of histrionics.

DB was never needed. Assuming necros did have a problem at that time, then something was needed. The something you got was, in part at least, DB. Now that it has been reduced in effectiveness, you may or may not be back to needing something.

The focus here has centered almost exclusively on the rather narrow situation of "fast-killing groups", to the point that it would seem this is a huge facet of the game. Yet some are saying you were already performing poorly in that situation. Seems to me that if both were true, you'd be (and would have been even prior to the nerf) more focused on fixing the "performing poorly in a huge facet of the game" aspect rather than just maintaining the particular level of poor you had before. Comes off more as simple self-preservationist instinct than any rational argument. Possibly doing more harm than good by taking focus away from the true issue.

Or maybe you actually do fairly well in this situation. For that to be true, considering that no one has all that much downtime, you have to be fairly close even before others have to stop to recover. In that case I'd say maybe you shouldn't be sustaining longer in this situation.

That's not to say this change was correct in every way, or any way at all for that matter. But I am saying that the logic and specifics being thrown around in this thread sure sound a lot like over-reaction. At the very least, the emphasis on facts and numbers that by themselves don't actually mean anything is a very poor way of making your point. You could regen a billion mana per second and still be underpowered, or zero per second and be overpowered.

Bottom line is 117600 mana at the very most over ~1/2 hour. In practical terms, weighted for how you actually spend your time in game, maybe half that. How many dead mobs does that equal?

Hey voodoo, they are doubling mod-rods recast delay and putting the Gather line on a 21 minute timer in order to make mana a resource in raids.

That won't have any impact on your enjoyment of the game though will it now?

Here is what you can do.

Make 2 verisons of this aa bundled together.

One works as now and regens the same amount of mana. The second version have alot faster reuse but regens alot less mana, lets say 4 minutes and regens only 40% of the mana but only takes 40% of the health required? When using second version the normal Deathbloom will get it's reuse timer started but with only 7,5 minute. If you use the first and current version the second version will get a reuse of 7,5 minute aswell, and keep the 10 minute on the current version if you use it, and here 2,5 minute have to pass before it can be reused as when using the second version.

You can use this to get some mana in a pinch or if a fight lasts too long and you as a Necro don't want to sit out and meditate on a mount to avoid engaging in combat (OOC regen) You have a choice to use the long reuse timer if you can time this for your liking or if you know you will need it due to say a mana drain, a death/revive thing, what ever is needed.

Or you can add an AA thatt have a small chance to reset the current reuse of Death bloom, small because you have 10 minutes to get that chance.

But, I agree with others here. The 10 minutes is too much, set it to 5 or 7,5 minutes if dont want to add anything but only adjust. I don't see much balancing in this nerf, as you say Piestro, it's a small nerf, that means it's fairly unnessecary. Necros need this in groups alot, and I've raided with alot of necros who need to use this (I have a nec but havent raided much with him) The mana return from AA's aren't enough for fast encounters in groups and I for one didn't get much agro using alot of dots to get my DPS up and running, it happends but then we can FD and use time summoning a mount again. Necros also pull, when we do this we especially need Deathbloom at a much faster timer.

I love how in one sentence, you can complain about the lack of specific information and in the very next breath make a sweeping statement, with absolutely no backing, that "DB was never needed".

Maybe you should work on the "logic and specifics" of your argument, or at the least, your emphasis on completely baseless statements that by themselves don't mean anything and which makes what you say a very poor way of making your point.

Obviously if you aren't killing that many you need to try harder. I know it's possible for some classes to kill 20 light blue mobs in the time I can kill a yellow one. I've done it personally. Also not all classes need a merc to swarm, kite, or beam so you can double the experience right there. Obviously you aren't very good at it. Maybe I'm not the one that needs to stop making things up.

I didn't put words in your mouth, I said that it was obvious to me, if I was putting words in your mouth I would have said "You said ..." there is a huge difference. Although I will apologize if that is how it made you feel. You have made a few statements and so have others that have lead me to believe the feeling that other classes that can do all these things are fine, except the Necromancer.

Fast killing groups ARE a large focus in the game I play. We all have limited play time, fewer and fewer of us are high school/college age with lots of free time to spend in EQ these days. We want the new heroic adventures to be over as quickly as possible, if we are grinding lessons we want to make the most of it, if necros perform worse than a DPS merc why would you take them unless they are a pal, guildee, you are a good person?

We were bad at "fast killing groups" prior to nerf, we are worse now (again). It is like saying, let's take the worse <DPS/Healer/Tank> in this situation and make him/her worse at it, by changing an ability that doesn't effect what they really wanted to effect, raid necros in the case of DB (I really think they were trying to lower necro dps in raids, using an ability that has no effect on raid dps. But Aristo and some others have taken care of our DPS in the spell arena already (with collateral damage to other dot classes) and the epic is next.)

Why weren't we trying to improve our position before? Because we are not burst, we just want to be significant and not carried by the rest of the group. Because years ago we did work on it, and got Spells and the AA DB that made a huge difference in this area, making us significant as a DPS class in group.

A key metric used in connection with the change was that no-one would take a necro over a wiz-merc in a fast-kill group because the wiz-merc would out-dps the necro over a typical session.

So why won't someone parse themselves in a fast-kill group against a wiz-merc over 45 minutes and say:
"Here's what I parsed, here's what the wiz-merc parsed, this is how much it beat me by. Please fix it".

Otherwise it becomes arguing about mechanics and then necros have to explain how their class works (irrelevant - it's the dps that matters)...but every time this is brought up it's ignored...

Not even in the slightest. Of course, doesn't mean much coming from me, since I'm not high enough level to have gather or the self rod, and the rods I do have aren't that good anyway. Hardly ever use them. Not that you'll believe me but for the record, I think mages probably should see some changes. Can't really go into specifics...

It wasn't. I can say that with confidence because no specific ability is ever needed. Any problem in game can always be addressed in multiple ways. Had you not taken that out of context; had you considered the "needed something" part; you might have been able to understand my point.

You (and Shaard) understand neither my points nor my position. Seems you all just see something that suggests necros maybe aren't utterly useless in every meaningful way and react with hostility. Hard to take you or your problems seriously.

The problem is that sometimes it can take years to get anything done. Call it cyclical balance or whatever but classes get into a bad spot and then generally it's community driven feedback and suggestions that pull the class back up.

Look at wizards. They were irrelevant for a few expansions but they were eventually able to get some good changes put in and are now back where they should be (mostly).

It took time to get the spells/abilities to get Necromancers relevant in the group game again and with one fell swoop Elidroth cut the legs out from under that. And until he comes to these boards and says he was targeting group/solo Necromancer DPS with the Death Bloom nerf and not the currently stated raid Necromancer target (which he missed) then people are going to continue to be upset for being collateral damage.

Why spend the effort and time going some other route to get fixed in the group game when there was already a method implemented which was wrongly nerfed? "Wrongly" in this context referring to Elidroth's statement of nerf intent and his failure in hitting that target.

If you really want to get technical we could break out damage per mana/duration the. We can see what's really fair... Though I'm sure that was posted already too. That would also be considered "class envy" and frankly necros don't care about other classes. We care about necros!

Someone did something like this in one of these threads can't remember which one. But it was not that the wizard merc did more dps/damage then the necro it was that after like 30 mins the wizzy merc had done 90% of the damage that the necro did over that 30 min time frame. It was the fact that the necro was oom after that 30 mins and that the wizard merc was only at like 85% mana after that time frame. This was the necro go all out(3 swifts + 2 swarm pet spells)


This all comes down to how long we can go. NOT how much we can do.

I give you an example of what this means.

necro: can do 30k dps a mob for 30 mins before being out of mana and need to sit and med for 3 mins back to full mana.

wizard merc : can do 27k dps a mob for 45+ mins before being out of mana and need to put it on passive so it meds back up.

So while the necro might beable to kill mobs faster that 30 mins. After that for 30 mins you lose that 30k dps for 3 mins worth of mobs. While the wizard merc is still going strong at 27k dps for another 15+ min.

now granted the necro can chose to cast less dots/swarm pets on each mob and have more mana to go longer but that means the necro is lower his/her dps to the point where it could be = or < then the wizard mercs dps.

Which one of the two is going be better for a fast pase nonstop pulling kill group?

What class are you Tweelis? How long were the fights lasting? He was obviously paying attention to the necro and not the mage, a mage should be awfully close to our sustained DPS (if same gear / AAs).
Group or raid geared toons?

This seems to me to be pointlessly arguing minutia or histrionics. Where did anyone say that a problem must be solved in one and only one way?

Since that wasn't MY position, my only question is, are you the pot or the kettle?

You did a parse in a mission with a grand total seven mobs you can damage. With a almost 30 minute long parse. 3 named 3 lieutenants one wall. Why on earth would you think that this parse was useful to this debate?

Between traveling upstairs to damage wall 25% then down again to killed named mobs you should always hit OOC regen between fights. I don't even think wall is agro so you may well still be in OOC while damaging it. Given the above this parse has zero to do with mana regeneration.

Your choice of parse is just not valid for this topic are the argument you're trying to support with it.

tweelis the total time on that pars is 30 mins worth of fighting. How much damage we can do per mob has not changed. What has changed with this nerf is how long we can go before we 1 have to cut back on the damage we doing or 2 have to stop damage the mobs at all to regen mana to fight more.

Why can't non necros see this. THIS CHANGE DOSE NOTHING FOR OUR MAX DPS PER MOB. What it dose is change how many mobs we can stay at max dps before we have to slow down or stop dpsing mobs cause we are out of mana.

I'm a mage with near max aa's before this expansion (missing stuff like tradeskill aa's and innate charisma, etc.). He was max aa's before this expansion and is nearly maxed now.

Fights times were all over the place. Most were in the 60-70 second range, shortest was 53 seconds and longest was 148 seconds.

His main is a necromancer; at least that's what he plays on raids.

He raids and has a mix of tier 1-3 raid gear from RoF. My guild (I don't raid) just beat Chelsith and doesn't have it on farm yet. The biggest difference I can see is pets. He has EM18, I have EM14. My first pet of the night had around 5k worth of bazaar gear, his pet will get whatever buffs the rest of the group does.

As I said above, show me a 60+ minute xp grind parse that has something like:
Paladin @ 7k DPS
Cleric @ 12k DPS
Necromancer @ 21k DPS
Monk @ 45k DPS
Zerker @ 47k DPS
Wizard @ 51k DPS

or anything with substantial long term DPS disparities and my tune will change.

I can kill most CotF trash mobs in around 45 seconds with just me and a wizard merc. Thats with a necro in T1-T2 CoF raid gear in a guild that beat Plane of Shadows raid for the first time just a hour before CotF launch patch started.

Your group needs to step it up because those fights should not last more then 30 seconds with raid geared mage and a necro mains both blasting away.

So because you or your friend or whoever is playing the characters in that group have absolutely no idea what they're doing Necros are fine?

Here's my boxed druid in 4 HA's. Clearly Necros need major boosts based off your data since they're being out-dps'ed by a priest.

Combined: A crumbling deathcap in 4370s, 292259k @66879dps --- Druid + pets 76927k @17632dps (26.32%)

Hint: Bad data is bad.

I can't believe I just saw some one say that 2 people boxed 3 toons and this was supposed to e taken seriously. There is no way and I mean no way you can parse truly while boxing... 2ndly non believers will parse what they want to see they will parse it the way they want to see it.