mephits still spawn

Discussion in 'The Veterans' Lounge' started by Arkeal_Rathe_Bots, Jun 19, 2019.

  1. Arkeal_Rathe_Bots Journeyman

    I'm overly frustrated with it, haven't beaten it yet and feel the nerfs you call for are just ridiculous!!!
  2. Tolzol Augur

    Yea not sure how i was starting an argument but sure we will go with that.
  3. FawnTemplar Augur

    Ray, with my utmost respect, I disagree with these suggested changes. While I agree with what others have said about how these changes would reduce the difficulty of this raid to almost nothing, I have, perhaps, a more important reason to disagree with you here. Since you are a former raid leader of RoV, I believe you are in the unique position to understand my reasoning here so please hear me out.

    Historically, RoV has not been particularly good at following emotes and various kinds of mechanics. I love RoV but if I had to pinpoint just one of our weaknesses, that would be it. That being said, one of the good things about RoV is that we are strong enough to power through various kinds of consequences. My sense is that RoV is not alone in this particular boat, I think there are many guilds who struggle on events which require a high level of individual accountability.

    The problem with having this particular strength is that it cultivates a culture where mistakes don't matter, at least not at the level of winning raids. We have a saying in the Marines: Complacency Kills. What we have done is created a culture where complacency is commonplace and largely acceptable. Unfortunately, in this raid that kind of attitude will not do. I think making your suggested changes will only feed into the mindset that has got us to 100 wipes in the first place.

    Are there things that the devs could do to make this raid more winnable for the guilds who have yet to win it without losing all the difficulty? Of course there is. However, this can't be a one way street. Until we run this raid perfectly, in terms of mechanics, we have to stop putting all the fault at the dev's feet. We are not perfect, lord knows I've blown up the raid a few times. In this raid, much like in life, you just won't get far without owning your own and I am concerned that nerfing this raid into oblivion will only encourage people to continue not owning their .

    To be clear, you are in my group every week, I hope you know that I know that you are not one of these people. I just want you to stop making excuses for them.
    Mintalie, RPoo, Spellfire and 6 others like this.
  4. svann Augur

    Hey now. Dont start blaming us old folk. Its those millenials with their twitter attitude.
    Mintalie, Kamzak, Axxius and 3 others like this.
  5. Lianeb Augur

    I actually had someone tell me and i quote "I have 425k HP the auras do not matter to me I don't die in them, and if I do take damage I tap my HP back to full, I never die to the aura"

    This was after asking him why he died to the aura, which clearly on his screen showed he died to it.

    and again I quote. "I took aggro when the MT died and the boss killed me the aura just got the finishing blow, so that's not really dying to the aura"
    Never mind all the healers that might or might not have him on ETW, and when he takes damage they panic heal him and have to stop what they were doing to heal him whether or not he can tap the HP back.

    This is a team event, people need to know what the raid mechanics are and how to get around them. Taking damage un-nessisarily is just dumb and distracts the people that have to both heal AND bane.
    Lannin and Tolzol like this.
  6. Allayna Augur

    What I was saying is I’m grateful it doesn’t make us adjust our strategy. And like I said, we won’t know how big or little the change was personally, until Sunday.

    @Those still frustrated without a win:

    We hear the groan each time we head to mearatas...we’ve advocated for a difficulty adjustment for months, we understand that 7 guilds with a win isn’t healthy for the longevity of this game, we see how it impacts morale both in guild and game wide.

    Good luck to those still working on this event.
    Elyssanda, Viltaire and Raynrace like this.
  7. Raynrace Augur

    I guess we can agree to disagree Fawn.

    Every single possible mess up renders you dead or worthless and some render a large number around you dead.

    With mephits spawning on every single death, that means a wipe. Every penalty having that much of a repercussion is just silly.

    So no, with all due respect I dont agree with you. Again, this is pretty much just the 25% phase im talking about and below possibly... not sure after patch.

    1- reduce mephits to 50/50 - instead of losing 15 people and gaining 15 mephits we only gain 7ish, might be recoverable, still probably not. nerf? not much.

    2- hall color failure- i missed 2 last night because of armors(trying to keep them from exploding as it is a larger penalty) and chose to try to DA on 1 and rod/horn/cotf bp click, fade and hit end regen on 2nd. losing over 50% of your mana and end when you are at 65% is still a massive penalty. nerf? not much. Still hurts bad

    3- hall failure, right hall, not far enough, some have to run around balls and at the farthest distance while snared, avoiding mephits with lag. Still a loss of just under 50% mana when you probably dont have anywhere near FM. Nerf? not much. Still hurts bad

    4- poison cure failure, while i agree it shouldnt happen, someone always seems to mess it up in the 25% phase, everyone has to cure themselves or not cure for the most part and for a lot of classes that have never done it, its not easy for some folks who are just full sensory overload with all the other crap they are trying to do in this phase. Nerf? probably, I agree with Axxius somewhat but come on, its supposed to be a game, not a job. You are talking about punishments and benching, this is losing players over a raid that is overtuned.

    You get the point...

    You said it yourself Fawn, I think you are a great druid and usually one of my go to people when I did lead raids but you have failed a good number of cures. The point is people are human....

    I guess im just over it and frustrated and should just shut up. At least I care enough to be frustrated hehe.
  8. FawnTemplar Augur

    tyrantula, Monkman, Tolzol and 2 others like this.
  9. Allayna Augur

    I think a good change would not be requiring a cure immediately upon zoning back into the instance.

    If you die and get rezzed, you need a cure. If you gated due to atrocious lag and came back, need a cure. LD mid event and came back mid event, need a cure. These off timer cures can easily cause a wipe. The death is penalty enough as you have a person who is out of mana, endurance, buffs and you get a mephit....rezzing past 25% is just not an option.
    Endaar and Raynrace like this.
  10. Endaar Augur

    Obviously RoV is a bit frustrated, and we've probably already aired more dirty laundry than we should. That said, since we're already having the discussion...we just have too many mistakes being made. Our strategy is fine - our execution is not. And as is typical, those of us here that are trying to understand the event better, improve, and maximize our chances for winning are not the same people who are consistently failing event mechanics.

    The top few guilds are used to demanding (and getting) top performance from their members. I give a ton of credit to the other guilds who have beaten this event, because doing so means you were able to raise your level of performance quite a bit. We have still not been able to get enough performance out of enough people to give us a shot at winning.

    I really do think this is a great event, and it's generally enjoyable. I'm not even sure I want to see it nerfed further. But I do wonder if there are any guilds currently losing to the enrage timer, or are the rest of us just hitting a brick wall at 25%? If it's the latter, there may simply not be enough players that are good enough and/or serious enough to allow more than 7 or 8 guilds to beat this. And the inevitable consolidation of skilled players that causes (we've already lost 3 to RoI) is definitely not healthy.
    Renotaki likes this.
  11. Maedhros Augur

    From what I am reading, I think it would be important to tell the players on your raids that not everyone has to understand how every mechanic on this event works. Each individual needs to know what is expected of them and they need to focus on completing their task. If you have 1 group or 10 people who handle the Sentinels, everyone else needs to focus on the boss/mephits.
    When we adjusted our strat so that anyone who wasn't explicitly assigned to handle sentinels needs to leave them the hell alone and focus on the boss, we cut our time to 25% by 2 or 3 minutes. There is too much dps lost running around between the halls and back to the boss. Not to mention any time you are running around out of line of sight, you're at risk of mephits during those phases, or being out of cure range on other phases.

    Insist on people using Geomantra/Cliff Stones, and for the love of god Glyph of the Dragon Scales.
    After we reviewed an entire night of our parses prior to beating the event, the little taddletale Gam-parse showed us that a good portion of the raid thought me calling for Glyph of the Dragon Scales was a suggestion not a command. I had a big speech in Teamspeak about complacency and doing those extra things when called for them, and we literally broke through the 25% barrier the next day.
    We wiped at 6% because of the enrage timer and then it was back to the drawing board on how to apply more dps at the beginning of the raid, so that we had more time after the 25% transition.
    You're probably going to need 7+ minutes after 25% transition to beat it the first time. Do NOT Panic!
    Of our last 3 attempts, 2 were wins with 3-4 minutes to spare.
    Once it clicks, it makes a huge difference.
  12. Monkman Augur

    Also, remind everyone to breathe during that first time sub 25/20/15... That adrenaline is no joke, focus on breathing so your not in full on panic mode and mess up a possible win by getting yourself/raid killed
    RPoo, Maedhros and FawnTemplar like this.
  13. yepmetoo Augur

    You see, this basically mimics what happened with RoI, except it was compressed within a week.

    We were getting to 25% without fail before the first day ended, but that was because we had worked on it some in beta on our own, and were able to get it to 50% (the old spot where everything started happening) and learn the mechanics in a couple nights there.

    So we spent 4 days getting it to 25% over and over. With plenty of time to kill it if we didn't wipe at that point. Even late when people started logging, with 45 people we could do this.

    At that point, some of us started thinking it was impossible. Some had said that for awhile. I don't know if officers were smacking people in tells when they screwed up, but I don't think we do that a lot (I wiped the raid twice that first night with splash before I changed my approach, once from trying to get too cute with timing and once from having my cure curse and cure poison single target spells next to each other and clicking on the wrong one in a rush, but I received no tells from anyone, or hate, just "c'mon man, clean that up").

    I think we expect people to clean up after themselves, and if they don't they won't be making member, if they do it as a member they won't be one long or non-retired long. Hope the officers aren't having to nanny that much.

    So that was where we were at. We stopped, took a 1 day break, came back with a fresh mindset, and tried a couple of things that weren't really different, but focused on forcing the half of the raid probably not performing optimally to perform a little better. We got it past 25% quickly, and started getting it to 22, 23, etc. But was really a "burning a bit while raid is wiping", not sustainable. Made some other changes, told people to use dragon glyphs, and BAM, got it to something like 6 or whatever. Next run, beat it super clean with like 5 minutes left.

    What was different? Not a single thing we were supposed to do was really different. We just identified weaknesses and pushed to shore them up, and adjusted the strat to make it easier for people to succeed.

    But a big part was attitude. Just SEEING THAT YOU CAN WIN made the biggest difference. Like with Plane of War. We went from no where close to winning to smoking it within 2 attempts. Why? Mainly because people assumed we couldn't win, and when they were shown we could, they stepped it up.

    So I suspect MANY guilds having problems have a ton of people that don't think they can win, and aren't really trying like they should.

    This raid is NOT harder than sepulcher final fight was when current. Its definitely not harder than the First Creation was. I don't even think its harder than Beast or Lichen Creep was. Now, we may have a lot less great players and guilds now, but the point is this raid is beatable and some people need to just step up more. Not "git gud", but, stop sandbagging.
    Sancus, svann, tyrantula and 2 others like this.
  14. Proximoe Journeyman

    This event takes every inch of each person as a player, it just needs concentration and focus. Get your cures together, get in the hallways and if your tanks and dmg doers arent glyphing properly compensate for them and you can do it. There are ways to jack it up and still win, just harder until you minimize the same people doing the same things. Sit em and get someone in there that wants to learn it and beat it. You can ax Ketruh, im sure he was tired of my late night IM's pissed about the same people doing the same things. But i just simply reminded him that KU is better than Missouri any day of the week and twice on Fridays cause they just are and we both got over it...
    Lannin and the Reaver like this.
  15. Endaar Augur

    I don't personally have a full raid parse, but someone who did just checked for exactly this and wow...I'm embarrassed at the results. Probably a good thing I'm not an officer right now.

    Probably should be part of your recruiting an outsider this statement strikes me as exactly the reason you guys are where you are.
    Maedhros likes this.
  16. Marquele Apprentice

    When I was combing through parses, I looked specifically at things like glyph of the dragon scale, geomantra, shield of orders, and how many banes someone was landing. The glyphs, geomantras, SoO were significantly lower in some people that were dying each attempt. I highlighted all these with fun colors and listed the numbers after everyone's name in the spell parse. Yay accountability. I never selected an individual to send mean tells to, I just posted the information for everyone to see.

    In order to search for the banes, I used Gamparse and search logs for "has taken and extra 195000000 points of non-melee damage from (insert name). I went through for each member of the raid force and highlighted which spells were doing the bane damage and then how many banes he or she actually landed. In some instances players were casting spells he or she believed were resulting in bane damage, but never caused it. This allowed for changes to be made. There were some players that had much higher "landed" messages than others and I reached out to those players and asked them to do a write up outlining what they were doing with hot buttons and spells to produce the bane damage. Players were suddenly aware of their personal performance and that of their peers. I think it helped with complacency. Classes also got together in groups to sync their castings for better results. If 5 banes land at the same time, only one gets credit. There were players who exponentially increased their bane landed messages from one week to the next.

    This took a fair amount of time to filter through and post on our forums, but I'd like to think it made a difference and gave the individual players accountability for their actions and pushed them to do better.
    Spellfire, Sancus and Maedhros like this.
  17. Maedhros Augur

    I wouldn't be embarrassed. Failing to Glyph is correctable. Identifying the problem is step one.
  18. Tanols Augur

    Part of me can't help saying ... be glad that this expansion's "road block" raid is the last one of the expansion. Unlike past 3 expansions where it was in the middle.
    As I stated before, RA spent 3 months putting in 4 - 5 hours/week of time into this event fine tuning strategy, execution, familiarity with the event. People were not only held accountable for mistakes/errors they were helped in every way possible to make sure they were not repeated. They were also helped/encouraged/rewarded for squeezing out every iota of performance that they were capable of from their character. Kudo's to Robnie and who ever else that made the decision to not grind us to dust vs this event until we had what was needed to get the win.
    Is it one of the most unforgiving raids ever, you bet. Does it need to be dummied down more? IDK until I see it again this sunday.
  19. Lisard Augur

    im sure its been said a million times now. if your still struggling it comes down to figuring out why your guild is struggling, just bench people who die constantly (stand in lava rocks, doesnt follow hallway emote, stands in the open and gets rekt by mephits). if your still falling short after you have identified the problem children, here are the 4 steps to success.

    1. Bane Hotkeys:
    set everyone in your guild up with them. This is pretty critical as it gets everyone targeting and casting a bane immediately with zero delay. first line the /target command, second line the associated bane /alt act, spell or ability. At 85 (move as a raid), 50 (stand/remain AT the south hallway entrance, have your squishy newbs standing inside the hallway, mephits dont spawn in hallways, less likely squishy newbs die to mephit pops), 25% (move as a raid) just have everyone spamming those buttons... utilize low level spells, lower the level of spell the less mana it takes this does help as you can also add more spells to spam (especially if your a paladin/clr with those redic long recasts). now on top of smashing your Bane Hotkey, if your a Ranger, Shaman, Druid, Enchanter, Cleric, Wizard you can cycle in your AE associated banes ontop of the hotbutton spam. Your bards should be going craay craay as well with their AE songs, you can also stick a bard on the mezzing of sentinels as they dont lose mana to the AE's.

    2. Timing/Preparing:
    Make it to 50% with 14 mins left, make it to 25% with 7 minutes - 9 minutes left. also do Not tick him down from 26% until your raid has refreshed Glyph Spray, Ench Unity runes, Geomantras, self shielding spells/abilities, Glyph of the Dragon Scales ALSO make sure you get the Poison Cure emote and get it cured before you tick him down to 25%. the moment he hits 25%, where ever you are in your circle raid force movement, just immediately move to the top of the stairs. time you raid movements cubby to cubby, do not move you raid into the center of a hallway entrance. Also Utilize a regroup spot in one of the cubbies for everyone to run to after the hallway emote.

    your gonna have 2 sets of mephits before the hallway emote. Hotbutton/AE bane them. this is all that matters, have your paladin ready to land that Cure 5 seconds before the Hall emote. make sure everyone has a Distillate of antidote on their hotbar ready to hit it if they missed the paladin cure. After you have regrouped from the hallway emote, fire off another glyph spray + Paragon chain.

    3. Tanks you have 1 job:
    have your Tanks all save their flash/deflect/fort for the 25% hallway emote cycle AE taunt their assigned waves and have them Flash/Deflect/Fort into their hallways, have the next tank ready to run from his hallway emote to Round up that second set and pull it to the regroup cubby for banes. once you get past the 2 minute mark the mephits will have stabilized and now you can focus on applying burns to the boss

    4. Calm and Ready: (you laugh but this is prolly one of the biggest factors in winning the raid lol)
    The chaos of this event seems overbearing, however its really not and quite simple. have you raid leader calmly talk the raid through the event. dont panic, you already know what to expect, walk em thru it. it breaks the raid down into simple steps for everyone to follow, rather then having the whole raid mechanic thrown at them at once. Herd the kittens, call out the steps and do it short, simple, calmly.

    "the raider is smart, the raid as a whole is stupid" -Oruatyrim(Jumvapace)

    in SR we beat this twice. our second win I dedicated Mearatas to the 3rd target of the night on our main raid night, we wiped first attempt to bad cure, we beat it a second time on the second attempt that night and i have to say with having 6 applicants who never seen the event it went WAY smoother then the first win. so to answer the question this guild (SR) has beaten the event twice so far. we dont normally dedicate it a night, its usually the last target of the week takes us Sunday/monday to down everything in a week with usually about 30 minutes to an hour to spare on monday night.

    Looking forward to sunday to see how this 2nd nerf changed the event. maybe we will add a 3rd win.
  20. Bigstomp Augur

    Or maybe you could shut up and let the raid leaders deal with it.
    feeltheburn and Lannin like this.

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