Illusions Benefit Neza: +10% dodge

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Ecchicon, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. Wulfhere Augur

    I read your posts Josh and I don't yet agree with your conclusions. My own experience shows me that raid mobs have very high accuracy, higher then 85%, more like 95%, because I often off tank raid mobs that are not debuffed and they rarely miss.

    I think the SPA 184 debuffs are very powerful relative to that and warrior/SK are at a distinct (possibly unfair) advantage vs paladins because of these raid melee designs. I'm okay with warriors having more abilities then knights because warriors can't self heal. But for SK to have some of those skills and life taps on par with paladin self heals? Well then I think knight parity is unbalanced in the raid tanking area. So on that part I do agree with you Josh.
  2. Wulfhere Augur

    Focusing on this idea, I have always noticed that EQ leveling is a series of cliffs or tiers. When your character reaches the next higher tier, things get noticeable easier. When you reach the proverbial cliff relative to the NPC, then that NPC becomes very trivial. In this topic, there is a point (a cliff) of relative skill values were an NPC can hardly ever hit you with a melee attack or hit you for more then MIN damage when they do land a blow.

    What you're describing is that cliff of avoidance AC. It's these statistical cliffs that make melee swarming possible for example. It's inherent in the designs and integer math of EQ that skills truncate to a result of always fail or always succeed, barring hardcoded thresholds, ... eventually. My feeling is that raid mobs are set at the "almost always succeed" stat values of accuracy and strikethrough.
  3. josh Augur

    You're gonna have to show me a parse proving that cuz I haven't tanked anything in a raid recently that missed me less than 20% of the time. Granted, i don't tank raid bosses very often but raid trash never misses less than 20-25% of the time.

    digging through logs i found a short parse against catikii. granted its short so this isn't accurate but there's no way its so far off that he is 95 or even 85% accurate. It's also unlikely that this guy was getting gut punched because i was tanking cuz the warriors were dead.

    Smash --- Damage: 3999288 --- Avg hit: 37377 --- Attempts: 139 --- Missed: 32/139 [23.02%] --- Hits: 107/139 [76.98%] --- Real Hits: 107/107 [100%]

    actually, i think i might have discovered where the disconnect is, a lot of you are looking at old parses for mobs that we use to be able to defend against, as far as i can tell, at some point during TBM mobs had their strikethrough set to 100% and we were no longer able to defend against them. and this trend has continued into eok. To compensate for this, it appears that raid mobs had their attack power lowered.

    I think i can actualy use p2aa's parses to demonstrate this.

    Here he is successfully defending against a TBM raid mob, dodging and blocking when warriors do not have a 100% dodge or block disc. so this is pre strikethrough buff and these guys have the attack power values you are referring too, very high. but later on we see his emo parse

    he's no longer defending, no dodges or blocks and his ripostes and parries are likely from enrage and flash of anger but his miss chance is substantially higher, 100% strikethrough, but less attack power.

    i refer you to my other parses against raid trash as well

    disturbed ancient beetles
    Total Melee --- Damage: 9282848 --- Avg hit: 14172 --- Attempts: 1018 --- Missed: 352/1018 [34.58%] --- Hits: 666/1018 [65.42%] --- Absorbed: 11/666 [1.65%] --- Real Hits: 655/666 [98.35%]

    35% miss chance, this guys attack power is trash. its less than TBM group mobs, possibly because of gut punch and somnolence but still, this is very low. and the assaulters on this raid are actually somewhat similar in their hit chance.

    magma lord
    Total Melee --- Damage: 25168119 --- Avg hit: 12019 --- Attempts: 3005 --- Riposted: 11/3005 [0.37%] --- Parried: 6/2994 [0.2%] --- Dodged: 10/2988 [0.33%] --- Blocked: 12/2978 [0.4%] --- Defended: 39/3005 [1.3%] --- Missed: 776/2966 [26.16%] --- Hits: 2190/2966 [73.84%] --- Absorbed: 96/2190 [4.38%] --- Real Hits: 2094/2190 [95.62%]

    and to round it off against group mobs in sathir's tomb

    --- Total Melee --- Damage: 41638954 --- Avg hit: 11762 --- Attempts: 5229 --- Riposted: 201/5229 [3.84%] --- Parried: 192/5028 [3.82%] --- Dodged: 326/4836 [6.74%] --- Blocked: 33/4510 [0.73%] --- Defended: 752/5229 [14.38%] --- Missed: 900/4477 [20.1%] --- Hits: 3577/4477 [79.9%] --- Absorbed: 37/3577 [1.03%] --- Real Hits: 3540/3577 [98.97%]

    the only one of those fights were somnolence or gut punch could have been in play is against the disturbed ancient beetles, I'm alone with my healer on the magma lord and i didn't have anybody who could debuff attack power with me in sathir's tomb.

    So, show me recent parses that counter my point that raid mobs have low attack power nowadays and I'll believe you, but as far as i can tell, and i am certain about this for raid trash, raid mobs have LESS attack power than group mobs to compensate for the fact that we can't defend against them anymore. Maybe raid bosses in tier 3 do, I don't know, my guild ain't even there yet so we'll have to see.
    fransisco likes this.
  4. Wulfhere Augur

    What is your avoidance AC for those parses Josh? I bet mine is (much) lower since I stack hSta.

    I am talking about EoK and RoS raid mobs. My hAgi = around 1100 typically. Based on this discussion, I'm going to restack with hAgi and see how my parses improve. If something like 1500+ hAgi nets a 15% improvement in base avoidance, that's worthwhile.

    ps: historically in EQ "attack power" (aka ATK) refers to the damage portion, but I take your meaning to be accuracy that we can now see as the secondary number.
  5. josh Augur

    correct, ive been saying accuracy attack power to avoid confusion but that got tedious, accuracy AP or maybe just accuracy would be better for clarity. i have 1830 HAgi 3600 AC. But our difference in AC doesn't really change the fact that the magma lord ghosts accuracy is less than the sathir group mobs

    EDIT: couple edits
  6. josh Augur

    So, using the formula i created earlier, which, as i mess around with, I'm becoming more and more certain is accurate, the magma lord ghost has about 6900 accuracy, with preeminent foresight i would assume you have somewhere around 3100 avoidance. which means that your to hit chance against him, assuming no somnolence or gut punch, should be about 22% compared to my 26%
  7. Wulfhere Augur

    I haven't tanked ML ghost recently, here is comparable miss rates (and let's agree that miss rates are independent of other defended stats)

    /GU -vs- High Arcron Ioulin (3), Tanking overview: --- Wulfhere: 1322632
    /GU Tanking summary for: Wulfhere --- Total Melee --- Damage: 1322632 --- Avg hit: 21333 --- Attempts: 76 --- Missed: 14/76 [18.42%] --- Hits: 62/76 [81.58%] --- Real Hits: 62/62 [100%]

    /GU -vs- High Vizier Ri`zyr (4), Tanking overview: --- Wulfhere: 5626182
    /GU Tanking summary for: Wulfhere --- Total Melee --- Damage: 5416562 --- Avg hit: 26041 --- Attempts: 354 --- Riposted: 8/354 [2.26%] --- Parried: 15/346 [4.34%] --- Dodged: 6/331 [1.81%] --- Blocked: 31/325 [9.54%] --- Defended: 60/354 [16.95%] --- Missed: 75/294 [25.51%] --- Hits: 219/294 [74.49%] --- Absorbed: 11/219 [5.02%] --- Real Hits: 208/219 [94.98%]

    and versus all the raid trash

    /GU -vs- A Krellnakor levy (3), A Wulthan grand inquisitor (3), A Wulthan chokidun (2), A Fereth forgemaster (2), A forge elemental (2), Tanking overview: --- Wulfhere: 4784271
    /GU Tanking summary for: Wulfhere --- Total Melee --- Damage: 4784271 --- Avg hit: 20622 --- Attempts: 332 --- Riposted: 9/332 [2.71%] --- Parried: 8/323 [2.48%] --- Dodged: 4/315 [1.27%] --- Blocked: 18/311 [5.79%] --- Defended: 39/332 [11.75%] --- Missed: 58/293 [19.8%] --- Hits: 235/293 [80.2%] --- Absorbed: 3/235 [1.28%] --- Real Hits: 232/235 [98.72%]

    ... all told my miss rates are about 5% better then I was feeling about em. You estimates are close indeed, on the high side. The 4-5% miss rate from your higher hAgi seems measurable and worthwhile vs going all hSta. This is cool.
  8. Daedly Augur

    So, like what would it take to get more formulas, mob stats, and how things are checked? Do you work for tips? Maybe a Dev GoFundme for work you would need to do outside of what DB pays you?

    I know some would argue that knowing things would ruin "immersion", but so does getting buff that in the description says it increases dodge chance by 10% when we won't actually see anything close to that much.
  9. p2aa Augur

    I have parsed over the span of 10 months around the same raid Boss in TBM . I think the controlled environment of my parses is more stable than your sporadic parses of different mobs you are looking into.
    This mob had the same offensive stats for the whole time.
    I never said that with Hsta I was avoiding better. I said that you can swap from a max Hagi set to another Heroic set, without you loosing any miss % or dodge %. Aka Hagi is not working against raid mobs.
    And recent expansions have not changed this. It became again worse, as since EoK you don't dodge versus raid adds too.
    And many other tanks came to the same conclusion by their own parses too that Hagi was not working at intended in raid, and swapped to a stat that was working (HP always work). It happened that raid AE became hugue too, which make HP a good stat.
    Also, AC has lot his impact on mitigation it could have before, with tanking distribution barely moving with a + 1000 AC difference (other thing I measured on my parses).
  10. josh Augur

    You are wrong. accuracy and avoidance are working just fine and they are perfectly effective against raid mobs because their attack power is low, I have given proof of this, if you can't accept that than that is your own fault.

    I haven't parsed mitigation but considering how wrong you are about accuracy and avoidance i'm sure you are wrong about that too.

    EDIT: i want to make something clear, you are correct that defensive abilities like dodge are not working at all against raid mobs but as i pointed out, there was a change to raid mobs at some point during TBM, we can no longer defend against them but their attack power was lowered considerably making accuracy and avoidance relevant.
  11. Wulfhere Augur

    These experiences and reports are why I'm among those who've been gearing hSta in recent months.

    I remember your posts about this.

    Josh these last two quotes highlight the different semantics between ATK (power) and ATK (accuracy).

    P2aa has shown that raid mob ATK (power) is so high that +1000 AC (mitigation) makes no difference in the 20 hit distribution. Meanwhile you're showing that raid mob ATK (accuracy) is measurably countered (reduced) by adding hAgi and especially reaching apx 1800 hAGI and 3600 AC (avoidance). This is contrary to P2aa's findings on avoidance. Which of you has more recent data is the question?

    1800 hAgi is attainable in RoS raid gear and I do see more knights (paladins at least) favoring hAgi in Magelo again, since gearing up in RoS. I guess it's time to test hAgi some more and decide vs hSta.
  12. josh Augur

    Yeah i know i gotta stop saying attack power when i mean accuracy. It's not helping my argument at all lol.
  13. Brohg Augur

    I'm at 1400&change hAgi with sta augs in. 3388 Evasion like this. It'd take a little work, but I could wear agi instead to get like 1900hAgi, but that's a cost of 8k(? lowballing there)hp. Our numbers are getting higher, 8k ain't what it used to be, but that's a fair chunk still, especially as regards absorbing spell damage which Evasion doesn't help with whatsoever.
  14. p2aa Augur

    Yeah that's it.
    RoI and Tritons warriors (the first 2 serverwide guilds this expansion) are stacking heavily Hsta
    They are all wrong !
  15. p2aa Augur

    With 500 less Hagi and 500 less avoidance AC than him on the same comparable raid mob, I was missing the same % than him.
  16. josh Augur

    We've already been over this, that's gut punch at work. In fact, you should have done better if you were using gut punch every time it was off cooldown.
  17. josh Augur

    I don't disagree with this, I'm not saying HAgi is better than HSta I'm saying its a valid route to go down because it does improve your avoidance. And for off tanks especially this is good, my goal as an offtank is to take as little damage as possible, more hp is bad, that just makes me a heal sponge.

    8k more hp doesn't make me a heal sponge obviously i don't really mean that but it's just a general gearing strategy, Knights don't have a problem getting back up to full hp inbetween swings, so if i aint getting one rounded i don't really need more HP.

    For warriors on bosses it makes more sense to have more HP but for offtanks it makes more sense to have more avoidance.

    The only point of my argument is that this idea that p2aa has that avoidance AC doesn't do anything is dead wrong. it works just fine.
  18. p2aa Augur

    No we haven't. Your gut punch theory is pure imagination, that you can think devs would let an AA impact so much raid boss accuracy is laughable.

    Raid knights should go the Hsta road too. Because avoidance AC is useless on raid adds atm, like it's useless on raid bosses.
  19. Lianeb Augur

    I have to say it is almost laughable that you believe avoidance AC is useless in raids. You may as well tank raid bosses 2 handed with your theory.
    There is a huge difference in defensive checks provided by agility. And acoidance AC provided by agility and the CA Line of AAs. You seem to mixing the two into one.
  20. p2aa Augur

    Well, you don't miss more going full Hagi than a tank going full Hsta. It's why I meant. And this is a feeling that is backed up by many warriors. So laugh all you want if you want, it won't change the reality.