Illusions Benefit Neza: +10% dodge

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Ecchicon, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Upshot of this, unless you are regularly grouped with a warrior using CV, yes, the drachnid illusion effect is still worth something (loosed to add +1 to your number for the dodge roll based on 110 skill levels, too lazy to check if that translates to lower skill levels).

    So it is essentially worth +25 heroic agility (technically more, but due to truncation, its the same as 1 tier of hAgi).
  2. yepmetoo Abazzagorath

    Would be more valuable, however, if CV didn't knock it off your buffs and only the higher took precedence at any one time, especially since CV is a short duration buff.

  3. menown Augur

    Question about the Spell used for the DodgeSPA sum. Is the shaman's 'Preeminent Foresight III' from their unity line count as the spell used in the dodge formula?

    Shaman level 101
    Preeminent Foresight III
    : Increase Chance to Avoid Melee by 11%
  4. Sirene_Fippy Okayest Bard

    I don't think so, Dodge SPA is 174, SHM Foresight is 172
  5. Quill Augur

    Any debate over what to stack for tanks ever, died with this part of the post.

    This is the one thing that could never be effectively parsed(because you never met mobs with that high a heroic strikethrough outside of Raid Bosses), and it was the most important.

    Underfoot, in particular, was far harder than it had to be for a lot of guilds because they didn't know this. Until you hit 200 hAGI, you got absolutely destroyed on something like Brath, or most of the early bosses.. particularly if you didn't have high-end guild DPS to just burn through it mostly under a Fort cycle, or a fleet of clerics. Tanks of the time were devoted to hDEX and would aug for it.

    And given its now a known gear-check stat, it frankly trumps all heroics. hDEX is a linear increase in rip and parry. hSTA is a fraction of HP compared to the overall whole.

    Your dodge drops in any way, particularly potentially losing half? Yikes.
  6. Brohg Augur

    We collectively dare you to parse a functional dodge ability versus raid mobs.
  7. Quill Augur

    LOL. If you're calling the dev a liar and claiming the equations are wrong, just say so.

    And functionally, you should understand by definition that such a thing would be incredibly hard to parse, as you simply will not ever be able to generate enough objective data to even out the numbers and prove the point. The inability to *prove* anything with this part of hAGI was known upwards of a decade ago. Either way, given we now have the equations, either claim they're lying that part or most of your dodge ability can drop against certain mobs(and really, you're probably only talking raid bosses for a Warrior) if your hAGI isn't high enough, or accept it and adapt accordingly.

    And anyone who would trade like 3% HP for the loss of potentially any dodge ability against mobs such that they get struck for far more, is being silly. Even if you aren't dying, its just bad form.
  8. Brohg Augur

    I don't think you're reading those examples correctly. They show a loss of the heroic bonus to dodge. But what's witnessed is *NO* dodges. Gaining back that bonus (in the example, nearly doubling the chance to dodge!) would increase the number of dodges from 0 to 2*0 = ... 0
  9. Brohg Augur

    Also, anyone who wouldn't trade some randomness in their damage taking for any gain in consistency while being chain healed -- isn't thinking like a raid tank. A rare dodge would be nice to get, but heals have to come in regardless, because there isn't decision time between the healer seeing if a hit lands or not and the next hit coming in. They have to heal as if it did, or the tank is likely to die.

    They're also maybe not thinking like a group tank, in RoS. Can't Dodge the dots & AE nukes. Have to absorb them, and still have enough hp to take a hit.

    Gaining dodges in exp content while everyone's messing about, so if you dodge then the healer can spend more time on their nukes? Sure, that's nice, but isn't different than gaining Parries and is less attractive than gaining Ripostes.

    I'm miles from suggesting that the Developer is wrong or lying. I'm saying, as are others, that an observation of fact doesn't imbue that fact with value.
  10. Quill Augur

    Huh? I think you aren't reading these examples correctly. Lol.

    Its simply a breakdown of the NPC Heroic Strikethrough vs the PC Heroic Agility and how it works similar to AC, in that it can provide a gearcheck if they want it to. In general:

    If the NPC's Heroic Strikethrough value is substantially less than the PC's Heroic Agility, the PC gets their full Dodge Bonus due to hAGI. Most trash mobs and even minis may be this way. They aren't meant to challenge you.

    As the NPC's Heroic Strikethrough approaches the PC's Heroic Agility, the PC starts losing some of their Dodge Bonus due to hAGI. Harder mobs.

    If the NPC's Heroic Strikethrough is above the PC's Heroic Agility, the PC loses all of their Dodge Bonus due to hAGI. You probably won't see this as a warrior outside of Raid Bosses that are meant to peel paint and break through defenses.

    Now, I do concede it is nice that it isn't as clear cut in 2018, but just in general.. I've rarely seen a situation where HP for avoidance is preferable, particularly at such low numbers of HP per hSTA. Insecure tanks like HP for the simple reason that the benefit is always tangible. *I HAS 540K and not 530K!*

    Also... a good question to be asking here is that if hAGI and Strikethrough are opposites, and its known that strikethrough effects parry and rip... then do your parry and rip bonuses from hDEX also get peeled back, if you have low heroic agility in comparison to NPC Heroic Strikethrough?
  11. Brohg Augur

    Heroic strikethrough works against the benefit of hDex as well as the benefit of hAgi, but they're calculated separately. You can beat either or both. Low hAgi won't prevent hDex from working, or vice versa.
    Beimeith likes this.
  12. Quill Augur

    Is this your 'feeling'? The question I was asking is more for someone with the equations.

    My 'feeling' says you're wrong from a logic standpoint.

    We make Strikethrough and Agility polar opposites. One counters the other.

    Strikethrough is detailed as the ability to overcome an opponent's dodge/parry/rip to land a strike. It is countered by being agile enough to prevent the opponent from striking through.

    Any peelback of dodge due to lower hAGI should logically also effect parry and rip. It makes absolutely no sense for that check to suddenly be against hDEX, simply because that number is what provides the bonus. That's not its counter. It provides the bonus to parry/rip, hAGI should determine whether you're agile enough to counter the opponent's strikethrough and get it.

    That's not saying this is how it works, its how it *should* work. Only a dev, or someone with the equations can really answer that. And given they've put out most equations, it would be good if someone has that to clear this up.
  13. Brohg Augur

    No, it's not a feeling. Back when gear was such that a choice was meaningful, one could choose to either stack hAgi to beat heroic strikethrough on Dodges, or stack hDex to beat heroic strikethrough on Parries.

    This thing about strikethrough and agility being polar opposites is pure fabrication on your part.
    Beimeith likes this.
  14. Quill Augur

    When exactly was this?

    So you still doubt the equations?

    If Strikethrough can be combatted via Heroic Agility, they're by definition polar opposites. They oppose each other. Its certainly possible that strikethrough and hDex are also opposites as it pertains to parry/rip. I didn't create the game, and if that's your claim, lets see the equations. Posting those is a lot easier than making vague claims about 'back when'.
  15. Syylke_EMarr Augur

    1) You're assuming that because Dodge was the only avoidance skill mentioned in the dev post, it is the only one affected. Instead, it's better to assume that hDex works exactly the same way.

    2) This is all moot as raid NPCs in current content have such a high heroic strikethrough that they bypass all avoidance skills.
  16. Brohg Augur

    There has been Heroic Strikethrough since RoF. Until type5 augs were introduced in TBM, tanks (especially group geared tanks) had to choose hAgi or hDex and slam it hard via their set of type7 augs in order to benefit at all from their heroic stats. Balancing would leave both completely nonfunctional, but we could choose either hAgi or hDex, and then benefit from the chosen stat.

    There's no doubting the equations as presented, there's flat objection to your trying to extend loose use of language to support a fabrication. "They're polar opposites" is not interchangeable with "this opposes that". IF the former is true, then the latter is as well, but that's not symmetric. They mean similar things, but the exclusivity that you add by implication with your word polar doesn't exist.
    Beimeith likes this.
  17. Rumplestilskin Lorekeeper

    Balancing would leave both completely nonfunctional, but we could choose either hAgi or hDex, and then benefit from the chosen stat.
    This is true in ROS?
  18. Brohg Augur

    When type5s were introduced, folks with current armors & augs in those armors then had a baseline that matched Heroic Strikethrough, and have since. So adding to either is kinda back to the functionality it had before heroic Strikethroughs, in current content. The amount negated in current content is subjectively just a bonus that applies in old content.
  19. octavio hernandez New Member

  20. p2aa Augur

    Clearly you aren't raiding as a tank in current content.
    All mobs in raid, from the trash mob to the raid boss, negate dodge and other avoidance skills.
    No one has seen a single dodge on any raid mob in recent expansions. You can parse for 100 hours if you want, you will see 0 dodge.
    The one who is silly is you. Especially it's funny when you are arguing that Hdex is not working the same for parry. It's working the same (I remember a dev writing that Hstrikethrough was checked against Hdex for parry, and no I don't find back the post saying it but he said it).
    The Hstrikethrough of all raids mob are set so high that it negate all avoidance skills.