How does the dev team see SKs?

I've only ever gotten dps approaching 55k on burns under a minute duration

At the expense of stepping on SKs' role... at least you finally admit it. Perhaps you should have rerolled as a knight if being the best tank in the game was not enough for you.

Ouch, as a Paladin Ive doubled that on similar duration.

stop pretending to fill out other ppls setances and pretending they are saying something they are not. the more dps was put in cuz we where lacking nothing els..

and on a side note we still are lacking not just warriros but warriros paladins and sks alike

You seriously have some mental capacity issues if that's how you interpreted what I wrote. I'm not trying to insult you but dude, I did not say warriors gained stuff at the expense of SKs. We gained stuff solely because the WARRIOR class lacked compared to EVERY CLASS IN THE GAME.

From a dps perspective, we were remarkably worse than both knights. From a tank perspective, we were completely outclassed as knight self-healing had much better returns than our raw mitigation. We still have no legitimate way to replenish life so the group scene still heavily favors knights as they can live with a slacking or unskilled cleric. Warriors can only pop some temporary stopgaps and pray to god a heal gets off in time. We had little to no utility that benefitted the group while knights have tons of it. Any pet class could go out solo/molo while a warrior almost exclusively relied on a grp. There was literally no advantage of having a warrior in a group compared to both knights or any pet class. We as a class had the most diminished role in the game, except for maybe clerics because people love their cleric mercs.

Pretty safe to say that knights don't lag behind warriors too much. My full out burns under a minute only reach around 60k and much much lower on TDS events. The fact that SKs are up in arms over something that's not even an issue is comical at most. If anything, all 3 tanks need a DPS boost.

I totally agree with half of what your saying. All the Tank classes could use a DPS boost.

The first part where Knights are lagging behind warriors, In regards to burn DPS... Thats the part I don't agree with. Warrior DPS is pretty awful, but I haven't seen a good one (DPS wise) in along time so I am abit out of touch with what warriors can put out when they do all the right things.

I have however seen what good SK's and Paladins can put out in more recent memory. And they aren't lagging behind 60k burns. Although in TDS all the tanks DPS is terrible (with a strong strong benefit in the Knights favor, of 50% of their DPS is spell based).

Comprehension is definitely your weak point. I'll put it in crayon & coloring book terms...

What you fail to realize is that relative to each other, SKs and Warriors are balanced DPS-wise when Proficiencies are out of the picture. Warriors are NOT suppose to out DPS or even equal SK's in DPS in similar situations - that is NOT the way the game works. No matter whether you agree with it or not, that is the way it is!

Once you can wrap your head around that, only then can you understand that by you gaining DPS via Proficiencies and SKs not being compensated, that your gain is now at the expense of SKs no longer having the DPS advantage over Warriors that they are suppose to! That is the 'at the expense of SKs'.

No one is saying tanks all around don't need a DPS boost. All that is being said here is that SKs are suppose to be more DPS than Warriors - that is the difference between the two classes and the choice one makes when choosing one over the other; better tanking or better dps. Without proficiencies, the relationship is in balance. Anyone with a positive IQ point can then see that granting Warriors proficiencies without adjusting SKs upwards as well broke the relationship between the two in favor of Warriors.

Do you understand now, or are more crayons needed? The rest of what you wrote is garbage not worth addressing.

When will you understand that IS an issue. SKs should do more DPS than Warriors, not lag behind by 'not much'. Continuous repetition otherwise is a probable sign of a condition that should be looked into.

I'm done with you and your rants. You make no sense. Your first sentence is you looking in the mirror, bud.

Based on what? Your personal opinion? SK Melee dps is NOT supposed to exceed warrior melee dps, not matter what you say. There is no proof or evidence to prove your opinion valid. Now, it may be true that SK dps is supposed to be higher than a warrior's at full burn, but it''s exactly that....a full burn. You cannot just give parses of standing melee dps output without having all dps spells running also. Warriors don't get that extra dps. Our dps comes only from melee, unlike you.

And even IF SKs are supposed to be this much superior that warriors, you're acting like knights are falling behind by 50,60,70% which is not the case. You're getting your panties in a bundle over negligible dps numbers and it's actually quite comical. You can take the dps if you want it that bad and shove it straight up your <insert here>.

I would say your IQ is about as high as a rock, but I'd be insulting the rock at this point...

Warrior v Knight DPS was most certainly not balanced pre stances. Warriors were the worst DPS of the tanks, Hands down.

Even now Warriors are barely even with knights on sustained, and they trail behind on burns (depending entirely upon skill level of those in question). Mitigation wise they blow our self healing away under a specific set of circumstances. Which created a wide gap where there was not one previously. Warriors were functionally in a worse spot then SK's currently are (group game wise). However the way they fixed the issues at hand (DPS and offsetting self healing in terms of mitigation to achieve balance), were a bit heavy handed and not well thought out. It has created problems.

If Triconix's 60k burns are indicative of a Decent (but not miraculous lucky) warrior doing the best he can without support.

Either of the knight classes can destroy that DPS as it stands, without support.

This. I'm totally open deleting the proficiency system and starting over without these stupid buffs and penalties. We were on the right track with Prenerf NTTB and prenerf Phalanx before Elidroth went off the rails.

Agreed sort of

NTTB has its own issues since it has a capped value and its a vie. But it was closer to a step in the right direction. Because the 30% flat mitigation of shield stancething is a bit... Unbalancing under certain circumstances and a bit underwhelming under others. I also think that defensive proficiency will create further balance issues down the road (if there even is a Down the Road).

All I know is group geared warriors were absolutely terrible for a long time, and its "cool" they don't suck anymore, but the medium they used to achieve that balance in the group game, created some pretty massive gaps in the raid game. Which sucks.

Xanathol, you do realize that it's hard to take you seriously when you randomly throw out insults right? Even Raven doesn't do that (usually)! On raids I consistently see warriors behind our better knights (hello, warriors only have melee, the AC of mobs in TDS cuts down their dps). All 3 classes could use help but as long as they are more dps than shamans, they're not in a terrible spot.

I fixed that for you

You're not equipped for this conversation. If you can get one of your parents to read this thread to you, they might be able to get it through to you that no one has requested that SK melee dps should surpass Warrior melee dps - just that those two should be about equal - so stop saying otherwise. Without 2her proficiency, the melee output of both is right there - with it, Warriors are overpowered in relation to SKs. Since tanks are behind where they should be compared to dps classes, the fix is not to remove proficiencies from Warriors, but boost SKs accordingly. The numbers are not negligible - it is on the order of double the melee output of each class and you all are aware of that, else you wouldn't fight so hard to keep SKs from being addresses.

Thankfully, your understanding is not required in this matter or any other.

Warriors are not suppose to out dps SKs but should out DPS Paladins, so stop grouping SKs and Paladins together. Warriors being 'even' with an SK would be an issue (and in all my parses, they out DPS Paladins and equal SKs who are dumping mana) and on burns in my experience and parses mentioned on this very thread, they are slightly ahead there as well (which again, compared to SKs, they should not be).

Please share. Warriors were hitting over 50k in 2012. Here we have SKs posting a best in the 50ks today.

I take it you are mixing posts; follow the conversation closer to see who's tossing insults.

As for your raids, are your Warriors trying to dps or waiting in a tank line? Parses or just more hearsay?

Parses that I don't care to post.

you keep mentioning this, but A. AC values in TDS are not significant relatively speaking, and B. SK spell dps is pretty low.
just using my HA parse from last page:
physical damage: 59387607
spell damage: 15002815
this is with 1h/shield, so the gap would be even bigger when using a 2h.

when burning spells equal out to about 50-55% of total dps output, but we would need some kind of comparable parse to see for certain what kind of difference we're seeing.

PS: why am i like the only person in this entire thread willing to post parses?
i barely have any real interest in this subject, so get with it people!