How does the dev team see SKs?

Discussion in 'Tanks' started by Xanathol, Feb 24, 2015.

  1. Xanathol Augur

    I stepped away from the game around House of Thule for many reason, not the least of which are class related. After coming back, I made sure to reserve judgement of the current game until I was level 105, near max AA, and had appropriate gear. That has been accomplished and if anything, the SK class is in a worse position than when I quit - and it appears to be quite intentional.

    What does that statement mean? Here's just a few examples...

    1. A 105 SK's top Terror spell - the single target aggro only spell - does 7827 hate. A Paladin's top single target aggro spell is a 4 sec stun up to lvl 108 that does 8263 hate + stun hate. A Warrior's top aggro 'spell' is 11106 hate + 1601 per tick...

    2. A 105 SK has two top lifetaps - a 8864 tap that costs 3320 mana with a 1 sec cast and 24 sec recast (354.56 hp/sec chain casted) and a 4852 tap that costs 1658 mana with a 1 sec cast and 12.5 sec recast time (359.41 hp/sec). But get this - Paladins now have a 4208 DD that does more vs undead or summoned mobs and 'heals' 6158 (aka a 'lifetap') with a 1 sec cast and 5 sec recast time (1231.6 hp/sec) that cost 1645 mana. In other words, Paladins now have a better lifetap than SKs... just wow... And the worse part? It is my understanding that most Paladins don't even use their 'tap' because their heals are so much better...

    3. At 105 with almost all AAs and a 283 / 30 2her weapon with a 16 dmg aug, I have mounds of parses that put my sustained melee dps at 7.5k, buffed with typical shaman buffs and haste. With procs, pet (1.6k dps fyi), chain casting spear on repop ( SK DD spell ) and landing the top disease, snare, bond ( lifetap over time ), two corruption dots and top two poison dots ( yes - 7 DoTs and 1 DD ), with a mix of TDS group and CotF T1 raid foci, I 'sustain' ( honestly - that is NOT sustainable ) 16.8k dps. A Warrior dual wielding in the same content with the same level of weaponry and buffs does ~16k dps in melee alone...


    So what's the deal here?

    SKs are definitely not positioned as the 'DPS tank' they were told they were - far from it.

    SK self healing is less than a quarter of Paladin self healing (only reaching that mark when comparing 'lifetaps'...), so self sustainability certainly isn't an SK niche - and apparently neither are lifetaps.

    SK aggro only spells are ~70ish% the initial aggro of a Warrior 'spell' and are even less override hate than a Paladin stun, which stuns have always added more hate beyond the override as well, so aggro isn't a thing either, not that it is an issue for any tank in today's game.

    SKs aren't a decent pet class either as SK pets do 1/10th the dps of a real pet class ( 1.6k vs 16k dps on mage and beast lord pets ).

    Heck - SKs are the only tank class that cannot cripple or possess a discipline that ups critical hit chance ( Paladins have Pureforge that does both plus ups triple attack and Warriors have a few discs ).

    Raiding? The 'Shadow Kite' nickname is alive and well...

    So devs, what exactly do you envision SKs being good at? Because right now, I'm having a hard time figuring out what exactly that is and I certainly know raid leaders that find that a challenge as well.
    Gruffish likes this.
  2. shiftie Augur

    I don't care one way or the other but you can't hold a serious conversation about agggro while you leave out voice of Thule. You're better than that.
    Battleaxe and Dre. like this.
  3. Ravengloome Augur


    1) Whats the Recast on your Terror Vs The paladin Stun
    2) Are your lifetaps linked? Isn't there another tap? AE lifetap?
    3) How is SK self healing less then a quarter of paladins? Between Bond/Using AE tap/loading multiple lifetaps/Epic, COA chest, and clicks. Sum total. Where does your healing land? I highly doubt if your using things intelligently at 1/4 of a paladins. Unless something has drastically changed in the last year.

    4) If your going to make a blanket statement about stuns (this is the 3rd time in afew threads you've made it) and try to pass off "well i was on beta years ago, and blahblahblah" your going to need to prove it.

    Another thing. Mage pets don't sustain 16k dps off burns.

    Your comparing things and probably (best i can tell) intentionally leaving out the rest of the background information to make it appear as if your class is in a terrible terrible spot.

    Sry you rolled a class that has never had and probably never will have a raid role. Although I've seen SK's tank bosses nearly as well as warriors.

    And Seriously your using DPS as an argument? When you sustain better then paladins/warriors? How much of a margin do want? Do you want to double/triple the other tanks DPS?

    16.8k with 7 dots 1 Spear and a 2hander? Common now.

    If you really want to try passing that off as what an SK can do? Ill scrounge up some parses from Beta with a betabuffed SK... Maybe your just not doing it right. Because that seems low.
  4. Xanathol Augur

    If you are trying to pull this conversation into a rant to get it locked, I'm not biting.

    Considering (1) that VoT is targetable, meaning it can be cast on a Paladin or a Warrior as well and (2) a spell that does nothing - not a single thing - other than add hate was purposefully coded to provide less override hate than a 4 second stun that applies to mobs up to level 108 - not to mention the hate above that which stuns grant - is indefensible. And according to those whom participated in the discussions, it took a lot of work to get VoT to where it is as a means to address the hate spells because the powers that be refused to do it directly. Amazing, really, and I'd love to hear an explanation from the team.
  5. Xanathol Augur

    Considering that all the tank classes hold aggro over other classes, what's the point? No tank class should be peeling off another, particularly not a knight off a knight. To answer your question though, 6 seconds. Paladins have at least 3 on separate timers per a quick lucy review.

    Nope - unlinked like many Paladin heals. Our top 3 lifetaps - the most SKs ever really mem - are the two I mentioned and the 3rd is even worse - 3667 for 1425 mana, 271.63 hp/sec. If you want to count the hp tap & aggro, that is 3553 for 1015 mana with a 3 sec cast time and 10 sec recast, or 301.1 hp/sec (1.8 cast with hybrid haste), but that is rarely if ever used since the mod doesn't stack and the cast time is so slow. The AE you referenced has a limit of 850 a mob or 14008 max and is AE aggro - basically a trivial content spell. It provides 130.76 hp/sec per mob for 1168 mana - as I said, for use in trivial content only.

    Simple math shows it is not even close to that good - only by comparing the two classes' respective 'taps' does it work out in that much of a favor.

    1. I've covered the AE tap - in non-trivial content, that is 130.76hp/sec, ie. 1 mob at a time.
    2. Bond is 2675 per tick or 445.83 hp/sec.
    3. Top 3 lifetaps are 354.56, 359.41, and 271.63 == 985.6 hp/sec.
    4. Epic is 1 minute every 5 and 80% of melee - shall we count Paladins'?
    5. COA chest 24 seconds of 15% of melee - shall we count Paladins' BP?

    Considering #5 is a joke and epic is once ever 5 minutes, all taps chained, bond running and even an AE tap for good measure, that is 1562.19 hp/sec.

    Now let's check those Paladin heals out since you brought it up...

    1. Ardent Healing: pre-AA v3 HoT for 5995 a tick or 999.17 hp/sec.
    2. Grief: 0.25 sec cast emergency heal for 14148 / 11790 / 9825 / 7860 / 6288 (more heal the lower hp) - it is on a 2.5 min recast so I won't hold that one against you in hp/sec.
    3. Wave of Grief: group heal for 16752 pre-AAs, 3 sec cast (1.8 hybrid), 18 sec recast or 846.06 hp/sec for the group.
    4. Ardent Cleansing: pre-AA v2 HoT for 4909 a tick for 818.17 hp/sec.
    5. Burst of Dayspring: pre-AA 11707 heal, 0.25 cast time, 12 sec recast or 955.67 hp/sec.
    6. Admonish: 4208 ( 1894 + 947 undead or summoned ) DD / 6158 heal, 1 sec cast 5 sec recast or 1026.33 hp/sec ( sorry - forgot the 1 sec cast time in original post ).

    Total? 4645.4 hp / sec.

    And that is not factoring in the AAs you have to improve the base healing value which make those much, much greater nor Brilliant Vindication, which grants you a guaranteed healing twincast on your next direct heal. I know what you're think - "but you can crit and exception heal!" Last I checked, Paladin exception heal rate was higher than SKs and a crit + ex heal happens less than 4% of the time per parses. Both classes proc heals as well, so pretty much a wash.

    And that only took a few minutes to prove...

    I'm not sure if you are playing coy or fairly new to EQ? It is very easily proven and has been done so many times over the years. Simply remove aggro mods ( so you know the aggro value ), go to a permarooted mob ( Valik in ToB, Ssra named, etc ), and bring an SK, Paladin and Enchanter. With the SK spells you can easily cast a 'calculated' hate value (since it does nothing but hate) then match it vs a stun and watch the Paladin take aggro. Use the Enchanter to memwipe the mob to alter aggro order ( to get rid of boost for first to aggro if you like ), rinse repeat, etc. I've done it beta with a dev on hand as has others - this is no EQ secret, but rather common knowledge. As dev have relayed in the past, there's just too much involved to try to alter it otherwise.

    Just going through logs now... 7k, 10k, 8k, 13k, 16k, 17k, 15k, 25k. Could be a player thing, I dunno...

    Accusations and trying to start mudslinging to lock a thread must be the new 'thing' to do. Everything I have provided is easily verifiable - lack of a will to do so does not discredit it.

    Now as far as credit goes, you have never seen an SK tank non-trivial bosses as well as a Warrior - that is an untrue statement.

    I clearly stated that loading all DoTs, a DD ( 8 spell gems ) using a pet and 2her puts an SK 800 - yes, 800 dps - over a Warrior simply dual wielding. That is not sustainable and if you think that is, you are wrong. If you think that is meaningful, you are wrong.

    Actual parse chain casting DoTs as they wear, spear as it pops and lacerating blades as it pops, lus pet - all with Shaman & Enchanter buffs, plus 17% over haste

    Xanathol: 16876.44 adps, 605 seconds (until I went oom)

    crush: 7184.98 adps
    Xaner: 1647.91 adps
    Blood of Bonemaw: 1234.24 adps
    Deceitful Blight: 1006.14 adps
    Plague of Holmein: 906.71 adps
    Spear of Vizat Rk. II: 903.25 adps
    Dire Strangulation: 847.56 adps
    Blood of Ralstok: 600.79 adps
    Touch of the Cursed: 580.36 adps
    Spreading Darkness: 536.61 adps
    Bond of Bonemaw: 418.25 adps
    Shroud of the Doomscale Strike: 355.10 adps
    slash: 354.30 adps
    Mental Terror Strike III: 162.90 adps
    magic: 102.15 adps
    Burst of Ice IX: 35.20 adps


    Now I'll ask the mods to please monitor the insults being posted here - there is no need for it and doing so to shut down threads to hold back other classes is beyond petty. If you really wish to discuss the topic, I am more than willing, as I have shown.
  6. Xanathol Augur

    Ah - found the AA info!

    Maxed Healing Adept == 64% increase to direct healing spells per http://eqaasearch.org.

    So using the prior numbers, with just Healing Adept, that would be:
    1387.54 hp / sec from Wave
    1567.30 hp / sec from Burst
    1683.19 hp / sec from Paladin 'tap' (assuming the heal is effected by HA as well)

    And I'm not even counting Twinheal or Brilliant Vindication usage, etc.

    Total?

    6455.37 hp/sec.

    Making SK self healing from above 24% of that.

    You were saying?
  7. Repthor Augur

    another one of thease threads cool.
    Elricvonclief and Silentchaos like this.
  8. Gruffish Elder


    If the other threads have been addressed then this one is not needed.

    If the other threads have not been addressed then I guess we should thank the OP for keeping the issue alive.

    I am not saying he is right or wrong. I am saying he deserves an answer. An intelligent, unbiased answer.
    Xanathol likes this.
  9. Battleaxe Augur

    Usually these threads start out with the statement that "SK's are supposed to be the DPS tank" when what's actually been said was:

    120/100/80 - the unofficial and superseded in practice guideline (not a ironbound developer rule) that Warriors are the baseline DPS class - 100%, actual DPS classes do 120%, and others 80%.At this time it was observed that knights get some outside of the tank archetype (passive survival and melee DPS) spells: Paladins - clerical and utility and SK's receive some Necromantic spells - taps, pet, FD pulling, spears, minor debuffs, and some utilty. No SK's are the "DPS tank" here. Merely the general opinion that when SK's can focus more on DPS than survival (boosted by using their spellbook, epics, etc.) they can close the DPS gap and perhaps exceed Warriors - the Pure Melee tank parent class. Noting the difference some SK's declared themselves the "DPS Knight" (in contrast to Paladins) which they found convenient to morph over time into "DPS tank".

    2H Damage Bonus Adjustment notes - 2H damage bonuses were adjusted chiefly to benefit knights since 2Hdrs were doing less damage than desired. Warriors, Rangers, and other pure melee would continue to do more DPS than knights since less DPS was to be a cost for knights having a spellbook. No "DPS tank" here either.

    Aggo? How far out can you first assert it? Is 200 (plus focii) better than 100 (200 if you suggest Warriors always pull with a bow and an archery shot is good aggro). Believe me, on some occasions (the Mech Guardian special event for example) long range > shorter range. How fast is your refresh, can you switch to the next mob quickly? Kinda matters when moving the experience bar - something a lot of players spend considerable amounts of their time doing. Can you dump it? (Thank you for Warrior Howl. It's not FD but a taste of OP SK utility is as a feast).

    Pulling - be needing a better bushel basket to hide this one under.

    Stealth, FD, coffin, Res token, difficult to get to camp. CoTH in partnership with another.

    Just my opinion, but when one is offered tightly constrained parent tank (survival and average DPS) or tank/medic or tank/foe manipulator roles one should look at superiority in one's primary role that other classes who don't share this role don't have (all tank classes have this) and the both the width and breadth of secondary abilities if one opted for some of those too (at a cost of some primary role ability). SK's definitely are not shortchanged. Play the whole class instead of playing it like a Warrior with useless secondary abilities and it's the hands down best tank hybrid in group content in the game and a valued raid class.

    Some time ago devs stated class balance adjustments happen regularly - it's not a one time big deal. Obviously if there's a big change there will be discussion (there hasn't been). Just as obviously if things have been quiet one might want to stir up the winds of (hopefully beneficial) change even if change is not called for. That's what we have here IMO. OK, minor improvements should be made to the Warrior class (less complicated playing the UI than the current stance system) but that's another thread. Distillate of Celestial Healing, Warrior epic.
    Zoggzog and Juudge like this.
  10. Damandor New Member

    what about the constantly proccing and critting passive lifetaps that benefit from spell crit aa's and exceptional heal lifetap aa's? Sk's passive taps have really good synergy between spell crit aa's and exceptional heal lifetap aas.

    Pallies do not have much in the way of this passive healing or damage at all. At the group gear level, which I assume we are both at (I am as well) I am constantly casting. Whereas at times, sk's I group with can just sit there and proc their way to full health just simply on auto attack. You are the selfish knight class, that heals itself and damages others. It sounds like you want to play a pally, so why not roll that if you want more group utility and less personal utility? Why should your class be able to do more damage, heal groups better, and have better ae agro than everyone else? Not to mention fd, snare, arguably the best 2.0 in the game, a really useful demand (Pallies is useless), ac tap, vizat's horror line, vizat's skin line.
  11. Ravengloome Augur

    Actually both bond and the AE life tap return more then the max or at least did in Beta. That SPA does weird things.
  12. Warpeace Augur

    Nope he put that in just a little further to change things up.

  13. guado Augur

    I just
    Lifetaps crit, just saying. Your "simple math" does not account for any of that, and saying "Hey look here at these solid numbers." None of it has practical use since ... crit mods and stuff...............
  14. Juudge New Member

    Did you really complain about the SK pet? Hate to break it to you but the SK is NOT a pet class, if you want your pet to kill something, be a necro. Comparing a SK to a mage might be the dumbest comment I have ever read.

    Sounds like you are playing a SK like a warrior. Did you take into consideration our innate lifetap procs? That generates ALOT of healing
  15. Gruffish Elder


    Ok, I like this answer. Thank you for that.

    My SK is 91 and I love him to be honest. The original post worried me a bit but this reply rings true with me. I really like the SK because he tanks anything I need tanked, pulls well and can snare. Plus a hundred other things that add utility and a "cool factor".

    I box a mage for DPS.
  16. Battleaxe Augur

    The usual argument presented by classes that enjoy a wider selection of abilities for improvements is "what is our class best at?" The answer is, your class is the best at a wide selection of abilities that work well together to make you a viable choice in a narrower focus but with flexibility other competing classes don't enjoy.

    You box a mage for DPS. I (a Warrior) play with DPS classes for DPS too. Not that our personal DPS doesn't matter, but for Warriors it's a secondary role - we're the baseline DPS class, average at best, kinda sorta DPSers when we are not the main tank.

    In group content, "I [BA: you] really like the SK because he tanks anything I need tanked, pulls well and can snare. Plus a hundred other things that add utility and a "cool factor". Exactly. Which do you prefer?

    1. FD pull, snare on incoming, aggo, aggro, beat on him, little less life for you/little more for me, healer deadsor/Epic/darn/FD, ...

    2. Cross fingers, arrow, Howl, cross fingers, arrow, aggro, beat on him, kick, aggro, dang healer deadsor, brb.

    It's the difference between an 88 key piano (knight, SK especially) and one that spans two octaves (Warrior). Compare SK combat self-healing to a Paladins and /disapoint. Compare it to a Warrior's /gleam.

    IF one is fishing for improvements even a glass that is 90% full is mostly empty. Believe me, the SK glass (even compared to Paladins who often have a curer/healer secondary role forced on them on raids that they don't really want) is doing just fine.
  17. Xanathol Augur

    It is always fun to see the usual cast of characters come out to hold another class down.


    Battleblade/axe,

    Devs have already stated in the past that SKs were suppose to be the DPS centric tanks, which is also per their descriptions, so the idea of tank with lesser mitigation than Warriors and lesser DPS than Warriors but, what? FD? is just wrong, no matter how many times you repeat it. The idea of Paladins 'losing DPS' for better tanking via stuns, great heals & cures, plus undead dps works. The idea that SKs 'lose DPS' for less DPS via spells, weak heals, and FD does not - it is illogical. Rewriting your own descriptions doesn't actually change any of that.

    SK pulling is about the only allure SKs offer groups over the other tank classes - it has no bearing on raids. As far as utility goes, ever since yellow mana bars were added, Warriors pointing at knight's mana is like throwing bricks in a glass house.


    Damandor, guado,

    I didn't include SK procs in the comparison with Paladins because Paladins also have healing procs, buffed, innate, defensive, etc. If you want to include those numbers, we can do so across the board. Might as well add in the Vie spell Paladins have as well, shouldn't we?

    The same reasoning was used for crits - SKs can crit a DoT 30% of the time ( effects bonds ie HoT ), crit a tap 34% of the time, or exception heal 41% of the time (and a ~4% chance of doing both), but Paladins can exception heal a 41% of the time with Healing Boon, 49% on Healing Gift, and a 7% chance to twin heal (SKs can only twin proc a proc'd tap, 7% of the time).

    Paladins are lacking in passing damage which I think is by design - are they were they should be? I don't know - but they are not lacking in passive or direct healing. I am geared in a mix of CotF T1 gear and TDS group gear and the only time I can sustain myself is on trivial content. No group geared SK is sustaining themselves on a TDS mob solo - Paladins actually have a much better time at this. SKs most certainly don't come even remotely close to healing a group better than a Paladin - I'm not sure where that claim comes from - and AE aggro is meaningless in non-trivial content because if you get non-trivial adds, it is a death sentence outside of a few seconds of deflection disc. Your listing SK abilities, way overstating them, and ignoring your equal or better abilities (undead dps, undead debuffs & snares, great 2.0, vie, yaulp line, defensive heal proc line, etc ). How convenient...


    Juudge,

    My statements are very precise - I compared the SK pet to pet classes to show how far and away they are from being meaningful. As mages have asked, "why do you even bother using it?" because at 1.6k, why should one bother managing a pet? As for procs, that is addressed above. 'A lot' is meaningless - it is on par with Paladin procs.


    Gruffish,

    There are two aspects to the game, group and raid. FD and snare are meaningless in a raid. For a raid, Warriors are the main tanks and rightfully so. Paladins were given roles over time to be terrific healers, group healers, and the best curers in the game, plus off tanks and undead dps. Rogues, Bezerkers, Monks, Wizards, Mages, Necros, etc all bring top end DPS to a raid. Bards make everyone better, Clerics are the best healers, Druids are good healers and can add DPS. Beastlords and Rangers add DPS and buffs. Enchanters and Shaman provide dps and healing buffs, slows, crowd control, and heals, respectively. Where those classes rank in their roles are their topics, but there is one class that doesn't tank any better than the other tanks, doesn't dps as well as a Warrior even, and provides no boost to the raid other than 2 ticks of 1 AA ability. Guess which one that is?

    And in the group scenario Battleblade/axe laid out, the accurate layout of option 2 is

    2. Largest incoming aggro, lock aggro on mob, take less damage than any other class in the game, do more dps than any other tank, coast to the end.

    And with merc healers in the game meaning everyone has a cleric, self healing in groups is of a lot less value than pure mitigation today than yesterday.

    SKs are flat out broken from a class balance standpoint and the fact that certain Warriors and Paladins come out to run interference is just evidence that class warfare is alive and well, even 16 years into the game. It behooves those classes to keep their stranglehold on usefullness because a raid slot not taken by an SK is a slot they could take themselves. It has been this way from the beginning and will always be this way, where some have no interest in class balance, but only simply promoting their class over others. Any complaints are to be squashed immediately, with hyperbole, misdirection, baseless claims, and insults. 16 years - it never changes.
  18. Damandor New Member

    your last paragraph, is exactly what you are doing with this thread..class warfare. Comparing apples and oranges, we can do this all day.
  19. Ravengloome Augur

    So what your saying is you have warrior and paladin envy.
    Dre. likes this.
  20. Seldom Augur

    Xanathol- You were away from game for awhile, so I'll fill you in on something you may or may not have missed. In one of the most recent times shadowknights presented a case to developers for needing help and received it (not that many months ago) plenty of other classes showed them support. Many warriors and paladins included. Many shadowknights seeking help used paladins as a base for some of their comparisons/complaints. The result ended in Sk's getting a LARGE boost in aggro in the form of instants, increased hate, as well as the gigantic boost to voice. At the same time, Paladins only form of traditional AE aggro was virtually removed from game and paladins aggro while DPSING lowered. When unnecessary nerfs occur based off unsubstantiated claims, players tend to pay attention to those claims on their class that much more. I'm puzzled on your stance on multiple things. In one area you claim Voice can't be held agaisn't an SK because it can be casted on the other tanks. Then you bring up Paladin Vie, which other tanks obviously benefit from if a Paladin is around..... What exactly, out of curiosity, do you feel SK's should be given to make them 'more' desirable?