Dev response: You (all) gained more power! Player: You gained more power, but aren't in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th place... whatever. Guess which one actually matters to players lol Week after week on Arx 1, and Captain Tita specifically, I am still trying to catch this one ranger who's a decent amount ahead of me. It's mostly about what choices I make prior to the Captain portion, and what disciplines are available at that time. I'm still going to try though. It's a difficult discussion. I consider rangers a dps class. Sure, sometimes due to numbers, they are the best and most reliable form of crowd control, in others their ability to heal is extremely helpful, but neither of those points should hold them back in the dps department. The Everquest world felt really strange for a time after we'd gotten Thunderfoot, but before Rogues got some much needed love. I'm glad they fixed that. It would seem their resources really only allow a full inspection of a class, or small groups of classes, every 6 months or so.
It is really hard to compare classes fairly..... ever. Does you guild have good bards? Good shaman? Good beastlords? Do your DPS only try to win burns, or do they try to win total damage parses? How proactive are your players at coordinating. Do some just suck at doing things together, or even at all? Melee classes require an entire concert of things to go well to optimize. Our discs don't all line up perfectly with one another, or with our support classes, so strategic delays help "optimize" one class over another and impact final results. So.....in order to compare you need to set certain parameters which are quite frankly too convoluted for most people to really do good testing. Even if we could, do we want every class to compete in every time frame/situation? Our opinions are going to be heavily biased toward our experiences and the players we know. Every class has some pros and cons, and overall I feel total balance is more on target than it has been many times in the past among the most skilled players. Going a bit off topic and my own soapbox for a minute, but I feel content should be geared toward having 3-4 of each class on raids, or 10 from each arch-type roughly. That means raids should be way less about tanking and healing, and MORE about utility and DPS. Essentially, more high HP add events that can be easily crowd controlled, but everything AE's and hits for way less. I have a whole system in mind in my head for balancing, but suffice it to say I want support to be less critical for melee, and the support classes to be more competitive in DPS. I am of the mentality that Monks could use a bump in sustained and burst. Rogues could use the same just not as much. Berserkers need some serious work on sustained, and probably a pull back in burst but more frequent/longer duration. Beastlords could use a small bump in sustained. Rangers could use another short duration burst disc. Bards need much higher burst and sustained, and a bit less of an impact on other players. Rationale being that beastlords/rangers get some great/superior support spells and good useful utility, but they are allowed to be DPS. While bards get a wider utility set, I think they suffer too much for it as evidenced by the best bards I know doing less than half the burn and sustained of the other 2 classes. Wizards could use a touch higher burst. Mages need another burst option that isn't quite as reliant on AE spells (or more competitive single target DD). Necromancers need much better stackability (DD option) so having more than 3 isn't like turning them all into level 85's.
It has become very hard to keep up with some of the other dps classes as a ranger and I agree with the OP. Both monks and rangers need some kind of boost at this point. Besides the already mentioned return of 19 delay weapons it would really help if rangers got a good 30 sec dps disc. Our current discs are really inadequate for a real burn.
I'm not sure I did actually gain power as a rogue. I gained some dps (a little), but AC went up (a lot) and the number of big burns I get seems to have reduced. As for the order, ok I'll put my cards on the table. Monks and rangers *SHOULD* be behind the rog, berserker and wiz. I'd say monks should be ahead of rangers a bit, and rangers on par with beastlords (and mages) as they're the high utility and/or pet tanking classes. Necros I have no idea quite how they fit in. Somewhere around monk level at a guess - ahead on duration and behind on burst. Right now the hybrids are doing pretty well and all casters can put out some serious dps. Berserkers I hear are poor, but don't have sufficient evidence myself to really know.
Agreed. We need some DPS lovin' particularly since so many mobs are un-puntable/rootable in many raids. Our so called "utility" is largely based on Auspice and punt-parking adds in raids. Our cure is too weak to add the utility to free up the healing classes to not have to cure. The other angle is to make sure raids are designed not just to be "DPS races" but actually require the utilities that different classes bring to the big table. Making mobs that are immune to everything does no one any favors - and to me smells like "cutting corners" in balancing an event. -R
Either additional utility (better cures, more tricks for CC,etc. ) or a boost in melee dps would increase ranger viability in the endgame raiding scene.
Lately our order has been similar to others: 1. Wiz/Necro 2. Rog/Zerker 3. Monk/Ranger/Mage (mages sliding into #2 a lot)
Let me start by saying we are kind of about adps working right. With that said I absolutely agree that Wiz Rog Zerk Monk should top burst Dps. I'm more than happy to be T2 Dps on burst and even sustained. Here's the point. In the same groups a hybrid beast should be equal and we arent. Our group game numbers are sad and yes I want a little more. The weapons at 19 dly.... instant fix with maybe a boost to empowered with shorter refresh. I'll pay large aa's for it. It's not just about rangers. Mages could use a little burst help but by far I don't play monks and wow they need some lovin. Just sayin...
Umm Wiz Zerk Rog are sort of pure dps... so as they should be the top.. Rangers and monks are hybrids and pullers.. So should Bards be topping the DPS charts too?
Zerkers would like Mend, CC, and some better survivability if these things aren't counted against DPS. Our class is routinely told that any ability that doesnt involve doing damage is "not in line with the class" but then we're balanced against classes that can do much more than DPS. Why bother playing a class that can only DPS when said DPS isnt significantly higher than other well-rounded classes? It's sad that people have to point to old raid content as a reason to have Zerkers around, ya great Decap makes short work of last expansion but I didnt realize we were the only class being tuned around trivial content. We're worthless in current content raids.
Again... I'm not asking to top parses or be equal to pure dps. I just want to be equal to my hybrid counterparts. Can Zerks use a boost? Absolutely. Mages too. My plea is more so to bring up monks and try to help rangers a little. If you give specifics of how to make an easy fix for berserkers please do. Don't bash my post if you don't read it all. Never did I say I want to beat pure dps of any kind and how long has it been since a single monk utility has been used in a raid?
I think Monk's use Mend every raid. Last I checked self-healing is a form of utility that not all classes have access to.
Yeah, I'm speaking within tiers of dps potential. It'd be really nice and make the most sense if berserkers stayed toward the very top on shorter encounters, and still stayed ahead of hybrids on longer ones. I guess the reason they don't is because they are berserkers. That's the most sense I can make out of all the conversations with the devs about the class. Every 2 minutes and 10 seconds roughly (the best one imho)
Monks are hybrids now? LOL now I've heard everything. You are either being disingenuous or have NO idea about how this game has evolved over the years. Too funny.
That's just what I was getting at - the utility that different classes bring to a raid needs to be worked into the mechanics more. DPS only races kinda suck for many classes. Just for example: Enchanters dislike raids with unmezzable mobs. (understandably!). Now if you provided a "token mob" that was mezzable - the Chanters could then at least use the Chaotic Mez gift to twincast thier nooks at the boss(s) - giving them a better DPS role in a raid where they otherwise could not contribute too much. If the raid kills that mob - bad on them - they just cut their Chanters (sustained) DPS in half. Whatever person(s) killed that "token" mob - would need some "schooling". -Rat (Who like the idea of giving all classes a chance to shine and forcing the other players to learn why other classes work as they do.)
Ring of Valor Efreeti Lord Aresh on 12/1/2014 in 32sec Total --- DMG: 97621483 (100%) @ 3050671 dps (3050671 sdps) Rogue+ pets --- DMG: 5910875 (6.05%) @ 197029 dps (184715 sdps) Wizard --- DMG: 5647379 (5.78%) @ 225895 dps (176481 sdps) Wizard --- DMG: 5284980 (5.41%) @ 220208 dps (165156 sdps) Wizard --- DMG: 5127769 (5.25%) @ 233080 dps (160243 sdps) Beastlord + pets --- DMG: 4913459 (5.03%) @ 163782 dps (153546 sdps) Wizard --- DMG: 4729457 (4.84%) @ 214975 dps (147796 sdps) Mage + pets --- DMG: 4627390 (4.74%) @ 185096 dps (144606 sdps) Mage + pets --- DMG: 4318359 (4.42%) @ 143945 dps (134949 sdps) Mage + pets --- DMG: 4180378 (4.28%) @ 174182 dps (130637 sdps) Rogue --- DMG: 4023395 (4.12%) @ 143693 dps (125731 sdps) --- Special: G ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Beast + pets --- DMG: 3680818 (3.77%) @ 136327 dps (115026 sdps) Raynrace + pets --- DMG: 3586657 (3.67%) @ 119555 dps (112083 sdps) Beast+ pets --- DMG: 3305840 (3.39%) @ 132234 dps (103308 sdps) Ranger --- DMG: 3253981 (3.33%) @ 130159 dps (101687 sdps) Zerker+ pets --- DMG: 3074678 (3.15%) @ 113877 dps (96084 sdps) Beast + pets --- DMG: 2646781 (2.71%) @ 94528 dps (82712 sdps) Zerker + pets --- DMG: 2636077 (2.7%) @ 101388 dps (82377 sdps) Monk + pets --- DMG: 2568771 (2.63%) @ 98799 dps (80274 sdps) --- Special: 7 Monk + pets --- DMG: 2389769 (2.45%) @ 88510 dps (74680 sdps) Ranger + pets --- DMG: 2319582 (2.38%) @ 82842 dps (72487 sdps) Rogue --- DMG: 2277364 (2.33%) @ 91095 dps (71168 sdps) Zerker --- DMG: 2247771 (2.3%) @ 89911 dps (70243 sdps) Monk --- DMG: 2210590 (2.26%) @ 92108 dps (69081 sdps) Monk + pets --- DMG: 1664920 (1.71%) @ 61664 dps (52029 sdps) Bard --- DMG: 1415995 (1.45%) @ 54461 dps (44250 sdps) Chanter --- DMG: 1400271 (1.43%) @ 63649 dps (43758 sdps) Monk+ pets --- DMG: 1343918 (1.38%) @ 51689 dps (41997 sdps) Redrum --- DMG: 1249955 (1.28%) @ 39061 dps (39061 sdps) Chanter --- DMG: 944632 (0.97%) @ 62975 dps (29520 sdps) Bard --- DMG: 867400 (0.89%) @ 41305 dps (27106 sdps) Ranger --- DMG: 662182 (0.68%) @ 33109 dps (20693 sdps) Warrior --- DMG: 583558 (0.6%) @ 25372 dps (18236 sdps) --- Special: 7 Shadowknight --- DMG: 549771 (0.56%) @ 21991 dps (17180 sdps) Necromancer --- DMG: 461865 (0.47%) @ 24309 dps (14433 sdps) Chanter --- DMG: 409063 (0.42%) @ 37188 dps (12783 sdps) Paladin --- DMG: 360288 (0.37%) @ 13857 dps (11259 sdps) Warrior --- DMG: 231098 (0.24%) @ 8559 dps (7222 sdps) Warrior --- DMG: 194252 (0.2%) @ 8830 dps (6070 sdps) Warrior --- DMG: 136149 (0.14%) @ 7564 dps (4255 sdps) Shaman + pets --- DMG: 94199 (0.1%) @ 4710 dps (2944 sdps) Shaman --- DMG: 42405 (0.04%) @ 42405 dps (1325 sdps) Cleric --- DMG: 32173 (0.03%) @ 32173 dps (1005 sdps) Cleric --- DMG: 15269 (0.02%) @ 1697 dps (477 sdps) Special: 7: 7th yr vet G: Glyph K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI Produced by GamParse v1.0.3 Mind you this above parse is short duration and is not ideal for some dps classes disks to be fully used or whatnot but I see monks and Rangers up there. I'm not sure what missing dps we are referring to unless it's that Ranger and monk dps should be closer to beasts. Also not every group in this list had the ideal adps setup. Would be higher if we had more bards.....
Exactly... Ratbo Yes Monks get mend... how well are those mends working with mid 80k ae's from multiple mobs... I was referring mainly to pulling etc. They are DPS that can't DPS heh. I feel for em. And if it makes you feel better I feel for zerks but I'm almost in pain for my monks.
umm Chaanters can already use their chaotic mez anytime they want Ratbo...... Even with no mezzable mobs.
