Boxing Is The Plague Of EQ

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Efr3, Mar 25, 2024.

  1. Moardots Elder

    Almost everyone I know or have talked to agrees they'd VASTLY prefer to play on a server with no boxing. I don't think it's as few anti box people as you might imagine. I think most of them just suck it up and accept it cause they (probably correctly) assume that nothing will ever change. Doesn't mean they're in favor.

    I think EQ would be much healthier without boxing entirely. It would likely require some server merging to maintain healthy populations without boxing to supplement player counts on certain servers. It'll never happen cause DBG doesn't care, but I think it'd absolutely be viable if they actually tried.
    Efr3 and Kalipto like this.
  2. Sheila Elder

    But the forums show otherwise. Unless you're not playing past PoP, every single server has had a megathread requesting, begging, pleading to have truebox completely removed somewhere after OoW.

    If you're only talking about progresison servers until that point, maybe you are right!

    And I'll add that maybe guilds act as echo chambers because I'll say the opposite. Everyone I've spoken to hates truebox. Outside of a small handful of forum responders, that sentient seems far reaching. And even some of those have admitted that they box and plan to box themselves lol.
  3. Moardots Elder

    This has more to do with post PoP EQ kinda sucking than whether boxing is good or bad. Look at the available options for eqemu servers. The 2 most popular (by a WIDE margin) are single box only rulesets. I don't think that's a coincidence. Many options exist that allow unrestricted boxing and none are very popular.
    Efr3 likes this.
  4. CdeezNotes Augur


    No boxing EQ would be the end of the game. Period. I don't know a single person who doesn't have at least one box to be able to do things when nobody is around or doing menial things they don't want to get people involved in.

    I know for sure I'd stop playing if boxing wasn't a thing. Not because I prefer boxing over grouping with people*, but because 80% of the things I accomplish in the game are when most my friends are not around. My play schedule isn't consistent or "normal" like most. The only times I see my friends in game lately are while raiding. Our schedules simply haven't lined up in quite awhile.

    * And PUGs are an absolute no go. The number of bad players you come across in PUGs cannot be overstated. I'm better off boxing than grouping with lazy randoms who go afk every other mob, do sub-optimal dps, prefer to be casual chatters than play the game, etc. Sorry, but I'm not going to carry you on my back to exp/gear if you aren't pulling your own weight. Your benefit will not be at my expense.
    Quantumalgo likes this.
  5. Wordor Journeyman

    I love this game. But unfortunately, it's gameplay is very slow. To me, it's very boring playing a single toon. Boxing helps alleviate this.
    code-zero, MileyVyrus and Soriano like this.
  6. Laronk Augur

    This is a big one for why I box. You don't even have to be good at boxing for your box to actually be better than many of the people you meet in pugs.
  7. Moardots Elder

    Some people are relentless in their quest to turn a MMORPG into a single player game. I still don't think it's anywhere near the majority. I've boxed on my fair share of TLP's but only because I felt like I almost had to. One of those things where "if you can't beat em join em" kinda things. From the perspective of an individual players power level and what they can achieve in the game. Boxing is in many ways more powerful than cheating. Boxing enc/clr vs playing any class solo provides significantly more advantage than any 3rd party cheat I'm aware of. I don't blame people for getting a little hooked on that kind of power.

    I still stand by the idea that the game would be better off without it. Interdependence and reliance on others is a HUGE part of the charm of the game. Without it it's not much different than run of the mill MMO's that have been churned out for the past 20+ years.
    Efr3, ExecutionDbl9 and Kalipto like this.
  8. Soriano Augur

    90% of boxers have no quest to play EQ a single player game. That is either deliberately ignorant or bless your

    The majority do not see it as an issue...FULL STOP

    Not the majority box, Not the majority want to ONLY box, Not all players want to play with no other players present.

    So which is it...

    Do you hate boxing because you honestly believe it hurts the grouping game?
    Are you simply jealous of Boxers?

    Reminding you of your statement...

    "Boxing enc/clr vs playing any class solo" -Moardots

    playing two characters is almost always better than a single character? You are hung up on whether the two characters are one person or two people. What the majority does not understand a 25 year old game WHY does it really matter?
  9. Sheila Elder

    I love the people that come on and talk about boxing characters as they fight the idea of people boxing characters but never quite getting the irony. Why do you think we all ended up boxing at one point? We felt compelled that we had to for some reason. For me, it was the lack of clerics in the mid level game on live and not being able to complete a cheal rotation for my guild. I do it now because I enjoy the independence it gives me to do things on my time rather than trying to form a group. Now I always have the fundementals for a group. If we get a tank, i'll drop my tank, if we have heals, I'll drop my heals, but not having those resources available isn't an issue for me.

    I believe some of you misconstrue what boxers bring to the table and what would be in their place. Just because no one is boxing doesn't magically conjure people that want to play clerics that are forced to press 1 button for around six expansions for every raid boss. And it doesn't magically fix the rogue pressing autoattack and blowing a 54 minute cooldown for burning. Or the shaman that's religated to Malo/buffing/canni-ing constantly. Early EQ sucked for a lot of classes and making people only play 1 character doesn't absolve that. In fact, I'd say that it may make it worse since people will play what they actually want to instead.

    On the last several TLPs I have played, clerics would come and go. We couldn't recruit them fast enough to keep up. We relied on boxed clerics to get raids done, not because we weren't actively recruiting, but because not everyone wanted to play one and those that did often didn't stick with it. I joined the #2 guild on the server on Coirnav (though if you asked, we were def #1), so it wasn't about skill, it was just a matter of fact for the class.

    Truebox eliminates some of the ability to box, so when the population is healthy, and new characters are getting leveled, it's easy to ignore a few nights when you /lfged for hours. But when that population starts to wane, you see the requests for boxing open up on the forums.

    I'd wager that many of the people that whine about boxing are likely the people that play until PoP and quit and then reroll and so it's an important demographic for DBG to keep playing. And it's unfortunate too, there are many expansions beyond PoP that are quite content filled and fun and where people accept boxing as the norm. I'm playing on live atm and while I wouldn't say the new expansion is the best, it's definitely been fun.

    Part of the appeal to me is being able to do some of the expansions that I've missed and collecting the trinkets that you never quite dispose of along the way. And I wish that there wasn't artificial constraints that won't be there forever just to appease that crowd because I'd dig it.
    code-zero likes this.
  10. CdeezNotes Augur

    So do you hate classes in early eras which are as powerful as some duos/trios/groups? If boxing two chars is considered too powerful, why isn't a necro or mage? They can almost single handedly outdps some groups. They can solo their way to max levels. They don't have any dependency to be successful.

    Boxing is more powerful than setting up 24/7 automated crews that require no manual intervention , travel (They warp), sleep, etc?

    I actually want to play and accomplish things when I'm on, not sit around hoping to get a group or assemble a group. Having 100% dependency on other people as a war is the absolute worst gameplay imaginable. I'll take my pocket box and actually play the game instead of sitting there drooling on my keyboard. You call it charm, I call it boredom and forcing me into logging off having zero fun during the limited time I get to sit at my PC.
    Sheila likes this.
  11. Kalipto Augur

    Totally agree. Most people I know would prefer no-boxing too. Even some people who do box say they'd prefer it. They only box because they feel like they have to box, because so many people box that unless you do it too, you'll just get left behind. If you nix boxing, people still play the game. But they play it together instead.

    It'd be great to play the game as it was intended to be played - as a community.
    Efr3 likes this.
  12. Kalipto Augur

    Here's another thing I don't like about boxers. Most of them suck at doing it. How many times has your group wiped because someone thought they could box but can't? The only people who box more than 3 chars successfully beyond OOW are using 3rd party cheats.

    And before you pipe up and say "get gud" and claim you can box really well without cheating - you're just one of the many disillusioned players who think they're doing great. Sure you can still get stuff done, but you're a PITA to play with because you're slow and don't use your characters to their potential. And if you do use all your skills well, it just means you're cheating.

    BTW, we know you're cheating. We can tell by the way your characters auto follow too close. And how they turn to face your main when you stop. My favorite is when two of your characters simultaneously move around independently to engage a mob. Or how all of your characters interact with the same NPC conversation at the exact same time.

    Wow, I just can't stop whining with all my valid points.
    ExecutionDbl9 likes this.
  13. Sheila Elder

    Funny part about your rant is that no one expects the boxer to do well, they're just filling a role because no one else in the guild / friend group was /lfg and rather than sitting twindling thumbs, we got to play. You just sound jealous if I'm being really honest.
  14. Kalipto Augur

    Thanks for being really honest. That lets me know that my points are all wasted.

    Anybody can box. So, not sure how it's about jealousy. I'm familiar with the cheats, so I could easily setup great boxes. But here's what happens when I do that - I become independent and no longer need anyone else. My boxes are automated bots that play better than most of the old fogies hanging around Norrath. Suddenly, it's a detriment to group, so I just do it all myself.

    You'd think my ego would go on forever and I would never stop because, wow look at me go! One guy that can do all the group content he wants. But in reality, it gets boring. EQ was meant to play with others. But boxing makes that harder because of this exact experience. People just take their little team out and stop bothering with other players.

    What I don't understand is why the boxers hate the idea of a server that they don't want to play on. They have literally every other server to enjoy and they can't even stand a single forum post that's trying to promote something different. Is their ego this uncontrollable? They must play every TLP and it must be the exact thing that gets their goat?

    Seems petty.
    ExecutionDbl9 likes this.
  15. MileyVyrus Augur

    There is a lot of truth in this. The reason the people who drive a single character catch so many strays is because even in forming a group, it's easier to match a enc/clr duo with a SK/shm duo with a couple extras than stand around and try and build things entirely from scratch.

    If you were trying to plan a house party... You'd be done way quicker inviting couples and roommates and guys from the team, the cheerleaders, co-workers, etc... What you wouldnt want to do is head down to the bus stop and approach random people individually. You certainly wouldn't call the couples and roommates (etc) anti-social because they can show up with extra folks.

    What y'all want is a singles-mixer for people who never graduated beyond playing the most basic, classic, simple version of Everquest in the most basic, classic, and simple way. It's like showing up to a poetry reading with a speak'n'spell. Trust me, everyone else isn't the jerk in that situation.

    Most people can't play minesweeper or solitare or even stuff like madden and COD without music/podcasts/etc.. The world multi tasks. Imagine staring at someone playing computer solitare. In silence. For hours. Most would find such an experience uncanny and weird.

    People don't stop after they learn to juggle 1 rubber ball.

    People don't call it good when they learn to dribble with their right hand in 1st grade.

    People don't stay fulfilled long with the bare minimum.

    It's *perfectly* ok not to evolve, but its wild to be mad at the rest of the people around you when they evolve.
  16. MileyVyrus Augur

    Thats an interesting line to take. I also am at a loss why so many are anti-Tormax. I think at a base level they are just terrfied they are right, everyone piles on Teek, and everyone sits in a queue for the first week.

    I find that hard to justify, I think a vanilla Kunark Tormax will do just fine. Personally I don't get how people have no interest in random loot, its just a fun time for all and really protects and helps *everyone* find meaningful content to do and spaces out folks. But I totally get how Free Trade might break the game in some people's minds, and all the extra loot that is spawned devalues stuff. To each there own.

    I think deep down people expected something *WILD* for the 25th anni event. And they were already expecting a mischief clone... So the hate for Tormax is so thick mainly because they expected something besides vanilla cake. And that is pretty valid. I'm stoked to have a kunark start and rando loot at my fingertips, but as someone who spent plenty of time managing in the service industry, you could hand out free hamburgers and fries and people would still complain there's no free ketchup set up. You can never please everyone simultaneously. My dad always said compromise is so powerful because its the only way that two sides in a dispute can still feel like they sacrificed, but also won. ;)
    Kalipto likes this.
  17. Sheila Elder

    There hasn't been a non-truebox since Rizlona. Tormax is not popular compared to Teek. There's an opportunity for them to include people that want to box, reduce the queue for Teek and make a portion of the playerbase that hasn't had a server directed at them since Rizlona. I'm not sure what's being lost on any of these points on you?
  18. Sheila Elder

    And to put it a little easier to understand terms, I am saying that they should change Tormax rules to make it more popular and to entice people to play on it. In it's current form, it's going to not be a popular server. To put it even more easy for you to understand: I'm saying: "Hey, I want to throw money at you, I think my (and others, not even just the idea of removing truebox) suggested ruleset will be more popular and generate more revenue over many more years than your current decision for Tormax". That's exactly what these forums are for. I'm not sure how that's petty? There's quite a bit more outlandish ideas out there.

    If you don't see the lack of interest currently in Tormax, then I don't know what to tell you. All the signs of a dud server are there if one just simply observes. You'll notice I have not once insulted Teek as there's interest, people are excited and I'm glad that so many are getting a server that is doing it for them.
  19. Kalipto Augur

    I wasn't specifically talking about Teek or Tormax. I'm just talking about the potential future of the game. Releasing Rizlona was one of the best things they did because it siphoned off a lot of the boxers to a dedicated server. Giving Aradune space to build a stronger community.

    Aradune's success is evidence that a server, even slightly relieved of boxers, has more longevity than the average TLP. And how is Rizlona doing? Not great. Because boxers, on average, don't create community. Community is what makes people stick around EQ in the first place.

    It's all pretty obvious to anyone who's not obsessed with being their own powerhouse.
    ExecutionDbl9 likes this.
  20. Sheila Elder

    Well, then I think we are in agreement, even being on the other side of the fence. Release a Truebox and non-truebox. If it benefits Teek only, that's fine with me. Your feelings on how me and the community on a server I plan to play on really doesn't bother me in the least.