The ever-favored class

I see that SK have far more in-combat utility then a paladin. In comparison, paladins have become the more selfish class is their spell books even though the SK is described in lore as evil and selfish. Their spell books have not evolved to represent that lore and out of combat paladin buffs has narrowed down, thanks healer mercs, to Brell's and rarely Bulwark (that hasn't been upgraded since level 69).

The SK drains have a much wider range of utility to the group then the paladin's heals. Paladins can fill the HP pool while SK can group buff many additional stats via drains and taps (STR, AC, ATK, mana) as well. SK are much like Bards in that aspect. Meanwhile paladins fall into the Cleric trap of "target heals" that scares the devs away from designing versatility into those two classes.

Epeen envy is just dumb.

Comparing your class to another class is always a fool's errand except in the following circumstance:

When evaluating a class function that you cannot perform as well as you need to in order to play that role, comparing to other classes expected to perform the same function allows context for showing that you need a boost or change.

Being upset that class X does A better than class Y when class Y can do A just fine is moronic.

Can paladins tank effectively? Avoidance, yep. Mitigation, yep. Self healing, yep. Single target aggro, yep.

So comparing that to other classes is silly. Just because someone else can do something better doesn't mean you deserve anything.

You want to compare dps? Then go for it. There is a real argument that paladins deserve a dps boost when considering what their shared archetype classes currently do. Keeping in mind that paladin live dps will always be subpar so long as undead dps is boosted as much as it is. That is just a class feature.

You want to compare ae aggro? We aren't supposed to have efficient ae aggro. That is not our role. Until they change the game to the intention that tanks should gank aggro on multiple mobs all the time, superseding it as a niche role, there isn't much of an argument there. We received boosts in our ae aggro with allowing our two skills to work better and not bounce, and the overall aggro mods we were given.

We can perform a role (group healer) that the other two tanks can't. And that is a WAY more important role than ae aggro.

So what are you whining about? Do sk boosts mean you don't get groups? Do sk boosts mean you can't function in your raid and group roles? Nope. So why do you care other than envy?

Shadowknights have received numerous game changing abilities over recent years. From Reavers Bargain(zero Paladin equivalent), crazy powerful dps boosts, crazy powerful Harmonius(got nerf bat), list goes on. All this began taking place way back when Elidroth left and Dzarn(someone who plays a Shadowknight.....) began having a different role. Even before all these swings in SK’s favor, they were by far the more popular class and preferred ‘’group’’ tank. Even on TLP servers, Shadowknights are by FAR the more popular class, for extremely glaring reasons rather some people want to play dumb or not. FYI: Paladins aren’t in some horrible place. Shadowknights just have had many years of some ‘’favorable’’ activities going on. Paladins had a time like that too, it was just much shorter lived. If Developers wanted to start in a good place regarding Knight balance, they’d chalk stuns. Reality is they feel they are some super impactful part of the equation and they’re not. That has been a horrible part of the balance pie for wayyyyyyyy too long

Been running open raids on Xegony for the past 8-9 weeks...

Consistently every week our raid consists of 8-12 SK’s and maybe 1 Paladin

It was the same last year (I did not run opens then) in the sense that everyone and their sister had a zerker

SK have remained flavor of the xxx tank for quite some time in group content. Not saying paladins cant do the same but SK is by far the more popular tank class for reasons stated in this thread

So all that means is more people made a choice at character select based on what they wanted. Berserkers at points had no rival in dps when they were the flavor of the year. In any situation verse any other dps class outside of immune to melee situations and they were the best or at worst barely second. Thats not the case here at all. More people pick shadow knights because it suits many play styles better but in their primary role of tanking paladins and warriors tank just fine with them. All tanks are able to hold aggro over other classes. And a paladins secondary role and utility have not diminished in the slightest its just not as much fun and doesn't fit as many play styles.

TL;DR Comparing apples to mangos and saying same same. Sk toolkit appealing to more people doesn't point to something wrong when we have already discussed that paladin tanking is fine as is their secondary role and utility. Its just not as much fun to the masses and seemingly some who made a choice long ago. But you don't get to dismiss that away because you want to now play a warrior necro instead of a warrior cleric.

Probably has more to do with the fact that SKs are way easier to play than Paladins. Everyone starts out and they want something easy to play something that can go get stuff done. Someone whose not used to playing a paladin is just going to get burned out and reroll as they're not nearly as plug-n-play as SKs.

This discussion was started since for some reason, the next patch is going to give SKs an even bigger boost > paladins.

To the underlines....If an SK wants a mob, it's theirs, PERIOD. I'm not talking AE, I'm talking single target, which is a side effect of them having multiple AE abilities to include harmonious.
What paladins out there are loading direct heals? Really? They could easily remove them and it wouldn't change how a raid or group paladin plays.

No where in this discussion did I say given paladins a pet, give us FD, give us HT. I understand there are differences in utility between the two classes, I am saying that there is a very glaringly obvious favorite. I attempted to compare like discs, like abilities and even exact copies of discs....favor the SK.

I like how no one wants to talk about Thought Leech either.

Sounds like what you really long for are the days when shiftie had the foresight to steer your class ahead. Now we are left with pallies salty tear threads about well I can tank just as well, I can aggro over every other class I need to just fine and all my healing and utility are still there BUT I just don't feel as cool as them.

Resort to ad hominem attacks rather than discuss the factual comparisons that have been made.

Name something an SK can tank that a pally can't.

Can a paladin hold aggro over every class they need to in EQ?

Do all your secondary tools and utility still allow you to serve those roles very solidly?

I have yet to see a valid comparison only you saying theirs is bigger or better. Downplaying your utility and other stuff because its not as sexy or because you don't like it now. Something is broken when raids or groups only want one or the other exclusively. That is not the case at all. At character select one class was a hybrid of warrior and necromancer and the other was warrior and cleric. Sk's having many of the things necromancers have doesn't take away from paladins who have many of the things clerics have. Even if more people find the warrior necromancer more appeasing to their play style.

I actually suspect most (if not all) raid guilds would prefer more paladins than sk's on their roster.

Tank a full ETW.

So we see its just envy and ego, aka coolness. Some of that is before reductions in all tank mitigation, riposte healing still working and pre fixed harmonious. Other times as you well know thats the state of the game with a raid geared tank and a real healer utilizing everything they have.

You can't tank in Howling Stones? You know very well raid geared paladins and warriors can tank multiple mobs in any zone just like an sk. The only difference being how many at times based on the tools available or up.

Its not nearly as cool and their probably are not videos to be had of paladins serving as the sole group healer in raids or group. SK can't do that to any degree outside of healing himself. The videos of cures or splashing saving the day for the group in raids or group settings. The videos of Shiftie destroying entire undead zones solo or paladins swarming in Chapterhouse post sk swarming.

I agree looking at that that it just feels wrong. Until I think about mages pets tanking 3 mobs at once with no merc just fine there. Or know that a warrior could do the exact same thing in a group with all their tools available. Or 2 enchanters AE stun locking 20 mobs at once while a few AE dps classes melt them down. Or see a ranger who can solo burn down RoS named more often then not. Or see druids, beastlords and rangers out performing solely dps classes. And realize the game can't be balanced around full raid geared and or great skilled players who synergize everything they can to just devour the game or it would be unplayable to the masses who just don't have that gear or know how.

That video was after all of those nerfs, but paladins can tank piles too, just not as well as sk's and wars.

I don't know what Allayna is complaining about, he can make an SK if he wants to be one so badly.

You asked. I answered. You call it ego, I'll call it class balance, since I continue to use facts and comparisons while you continue to throw slander.

But since I came to the forums and mentioned the favored class....everyone's up in arms.

Magician pets tanking three HS jobs at once in HS without a merc? Sure if there is a player healer in the group. Or do you mean solo magician? If so, either (a) I am terrible at my class and need to retire, or (b) you are exaggerating just a teeny weeny bit...

So your response to an obvious class imbalance is to main change....gotcha.

You answered nothing. I said what mob can a SK tank that a Pally can't. You linked a video of an SK tanking multiple mobs when in a full group or raid utilizing all their tools. Something you yourself or at least your class can also do. Equivalent warriors also are capable of doing this as well.

Don't know the ins and outs of your class so I have no clue what he utilized to do it or if its a once every 30 minute deal.

But it was a magician all by himself with no merc. His earth pet was tanking 2 mobs at once with his heals as he dps'd them down. The 3rd mob was being handled by your swarm pet stuff until he was ready for it. He killed all 3 in about 3 minutes or so.

I'm honestly surprised more people haven't said anything about the mana/end regen of thought leech.

No other class in the game has an 18 min staunch.