I am not disagreeing that raid gear makes you more capable of downing content. My main gripe with his post < that seems to be removed now? Was when he said "If you want to be GOOD, you need to get raid gear" Which is the most thing i've ever heard. I know plenty of people who only group, that are GOOD. The thought that raid gear is required to do things as easy ROF/COTF group content is laughable at best. Hell even Underfoot group content was pretty cakey once you got the gear from that expansion.
Healing is still out of character for Warriors IMO, but I definitely agree we could use some disc upgrades now that Knights have defensive in addition to their carapace/mantle lines.
Wouldn't help in anyway shape or form. It would only contribute to calling for nerfs to pets. Good try though...
I'm glad to see the phrase "IMO" in your posts. "Warriors build their strength and stamina to unheard-of levels, making them far hardier than any other class. When combined with their heavy armor..." Rest, 7th Wind, Staunch, healing potions, useless bind wound, ... Connor MacLeod... Exactly what advantage does one suppose our unheard of stamina (stamina became endurance for all practical purposes and unlike stamina once was it can't be twitched) and greatest hardiness is supposed to give us? "Yellow mana" that imposes a limitation on our disciplines on top of refresh? That doesn't sound much like an advantage for having an extremely robust physique to me. I see "greatest hardiness" means the slowest ability to recover from wounds of all of the classes that tank. Hardiness = feebleness. I never ceases to amaze me that players who read our class description come up with things like Warriors as SOE described them should fill the role appearing in our description (that's tank if yer unfamiliar with it) DWing like a DPS class. ...but self recovery from damage taken during combat (this being a fantasy game and all/heroic characters being amazingly resilient) is out of class character. Healing others (other than first aid) is out of character for Warriors. Rapid recovery from wounds even during ongoing combat is not. Devs can mandate that it's out of class character(ex cathedra rulings) in order to eviscerate Warriors but from a game theory standpoint it is not.
I see combat healing as the key difference between Knights and Warriors. It is the primary justification for us to outperform Knights in terms of mitigation. Taking that away would greatly erode our class identity, 'Tanks without a spellbook' would get thrown around quite a bit more. Comparing pets to players isn't a suggestion to nerf pets, but rather justification to improve tanks.
Except it won't get us anywhere good. It will come at a cost of Stagnation or nerfing of Mages/Necros. Personally id leave that issue alone. Getting better at someone elses expense isn't really a win.
So then whats your suggestion to take or emulate from pets? Inflated HP values? Again, there is no use in comparing the two since they handle taking damage in different ways.
I think all tank classes need a new AA Line, call it: I'm a Goner 0/10 Each rank in this AA allows you to resist detrimental spells and effects more and more like a pet 10 % more each rank. At Rank 10, you are a Goner! Any other solution will just be super inflation or pet nerfing.
To the contrary, stacking healers or handling spike/spell damage is much easier with larger HP pools.
I see healing and curing others, pulling, and other abilities outside of any reasonable Tank Archetype as the not just tanks differentiators of hybrids. Self-recovery of wounds isn't outside the Tank Archetype. 2 of the 3 classes that tank have that capability and there is no particular rational that makes combat self-healing an intersection of knight subsets thingie - they arrive at it by different methods and so would we. They through magic and we through being exceptionally hardy/endurance (see the Monk Mend ability - are Monks knights? Are they casters??? We have some, too little but some. HP regen, OOC regen, Staunch. "Cowboys can't wear cowboy hats.", said Tex touching the brim of his Stetson. ) It's directly survival related where healing and curing others is clearly outside. It's much like shield use. Some have argued Warrior ought not be able to use a shield well. Some even made that "key difference between Knights and Warriors" argument. But shield use is clearly a part of the Tank Archetype. I would list the arguments but any rational person doing a Venn diagram would put Shield User in the intersection of the Paladin, Warrior, and SK subset with the union of these subsets making the Classes that Tank set and the intersection the Tank Archetype. Forgive me for forgetting (I don't mean this insultingly) - you can't discuss epistemology if the person you are speaking to could care less about anything other than what they want - no analysis required - certainly not Venn or Euler diagrams. I'm simply saying that from a game theory standpoint I'm fairly certain you are wrong. From a pragmatist's viewpoint I know you are. At least IMO. If you were really aghast at class blurring and not just looking for an argument, any argument you'd have started a thread protesting the Loyalty vendor selling Res tokens.
Warriors have no business dabbling in or asking for in-combat healing. The one warrior who wants this is also the one warrior who wants to ensure shields are duct tapes to our left arm permanently. He's a warrior who has a bad case of knight envy and all of his suggestions would end up with warriors being (effectively) knights without spell books. -I don't want my warrior to lifetap -I don't want my warrior to heal himself -I don't want my warrior to fight along the knight paradigm -I don't want my warrior to swarm (or really solo in much of any capacity) Most warriors want to get back to our roots: badass mitigators who have an undeniable edge in soaking damage under a wide range of circumstances. Most warriors want to return to being the measuring stick on which all sustained (not burst) damage is balanced against. If a warriors single target damage potential was 100%, knights were 75-80%, casters and melees over time were a set percentage above with beyond and over burst potential. Point is, rational warriors just want to be warriors again - unique even in our own rights. Don't ask for lento he able to heal myself. I do not want it.
So how do you do that without inflating the HP totals of raid tanks? Also, you're forgetting prism skin which helps handle spike/spell damage.
How about you speak for yourself. I can think rational, and i dont share your opinion. Beside this, i was the one who suggested an disc where endurance is beeing transformed into life - not he.
Rational Warriors use things like set theory to examine what ought to be part of a common Warrior, Paladin, and Shadow Knight Tank Archetype, what should be class specific and unique, and what's at odds with being a tank - using our best DPS setup, one commonly used by DPS classes to DPS with other players tanking, in the Tanking role for example. Carried to extremes this is hair splitting, intellectual rigidity, or inappropriately microscopic examination/analysis. Used properly such things make obvious relationships that are less clear when unexamined. I've always tried to debate changes to the Warrior class from us getting at-range at-will aggro to making shields more practical for Warriors keeping in mind both the common tank archetype and what truly belongs as a characteristic of a single tanking class. There are also emotional arguments, like I wouldn't have played a Warrior if we couldn't DW like Drizzt (a Ranger). Such arguments aren't necessarily invalid, but they usually lack any rational rationale. People who are making an emotional argument often project and claim those disagreeing with them are being irrational. No biggie. People see such things for what they are and it really doesn't change the basic debate.
the day a group person is "good" and can kill as fast..survive as well..or maintain as much dps as a raid geared person i'll eat a shoe.
I hope you like soul food (*sole food" get'it??!!). I've known of a group geared partnership that roared though year long expansions on the order of three months. One should keep in mind that group content is the endgame challenge for non-raiders. It's just a time filler for raiders. Not that it can't still be challenging for raiders, but our real challenge is keeping a raid force together and progressing through the raid content - usually on top of doing a pile of group content.
Depends on the person behind the toon. I know raid geared people who suck at their class. I also know group geared people who know their class inside and out. You can have all the raid gear in the world if you don't know how to play you class to its fullest you are not going do as good as someone in group gear who can.
