New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

Sure, if you AFK vs a weak trash mob with a bunch of low DI rolls mantle's returns will be diluted.

But vs high DI rolls (ie what matters to tanks), Mantle + DP is higher than 52% damage reduction.

I thought the entire things with you knights was that hard boss hits was why warriors were OP to begin with?

The funny thing is warriors were not OP, it was just that there was not a balance.

As to the 52% that is an average after a bunch of hits, you do realize that you will see similar results with LS+ SB. Knights also have a damage cap on theirs, where a warrior does not, so that is one of the ways they balance them out.

Also you do realize on higher DI hits LS/unholy works better too.

Edited to add:

It is also hard to test on raid bosses. I don't think that my guild will be ok with me going, hey guys, next time we raid XYZ let me tank it and you guys keep me up, but dont cast any vies, on me and I am not gonna run anything and just let it sit and smack me for 30 minutes, oh and keep me up you slackers. Oh and my 210k hp on a 75-90k hitter, I don't think I'm gonna last long enough to get real world examples.

Not really. Knights have better damage limits than warriors on comparable abilities.

Mantle: 1,214,900
Dichotomic Shielding: 638,500
Warrior's Bulwark: 105,938

Warlord's Bravery has a silly hit limit, and lasts ~2 ticks in game vs a single mob.

A long staple for warrior boss tanking, Brace for Impact, was heavily nerfed last Nov. It's absurd they nerfed it's reliability without buffing the %. The 15% reflected how reliable it was, but now that's gone, it needs to be upped.

=======

I still find it funny that a class with heals get an undeserved mitigation boost and are still upset there isn't (in their eyes) mitigation parity yet. Entitlement.

Funny thing about them referring to absorb and mitigation as solely mitigation means they don't understand SPA order of operations lol

Statements like this are why you have the credibility of BB at this point. I don't see Knights upset after these changes - ie, it's not rocket science, but people generally don't gripe when they're tossed a bone. The only ones throwing a tantrum (laced with repeated nerf calls) are you and a couple of other warriors, crusading to regain a glaring raid superiority that was unhealthy for the game over the last expansion or two. If anything, most of the Knights posting here are of the opinion that while some kind of change was needed, they overshot it, probably because it was easier than removing proficiencies all together and rebalancing years worth of content.

But hey, keep tossing out "entitlement", because there's nothing at all entitled to demanding to be, simultaneously, the only viable raid tank on all bosses, and having a passive mitigation advantage so massive that it made you better at raid "off tanking" in the vast majority of practical situations, eh?

Not sure what you're getting at here...Knights weren't asking for warrior stances specifically, but were noting there was a problem with raid tankability, then suddenly out of the blue Knights getting stances are announced and Warriorpocalypse 2016 begins? Ok. And?

While we're not likely to ever know for sure, if I had to guess I'd say the devs wanted to bridge the massive gap created by DP, as evidenced by anyone at all raiding Arx Mentis, and had to choose between a negative change (removing them completely, warriors crying about being nerfed, and retuning years worth of content), or a positive change (applying a similar/same mechanic to the other tank classes, not directly "nerfing" anyone, and the least amount of work).

While neither appears to be the best solution, it doesn't take a genius to see the benefits of one vs the other. And I'm still under the assumption that further tuning is needed/will happen, but we won't know until they tell us, or until the community starts providing some valid parse data instead of nerf calls, rear end hurt and pure, pure "they took err jerbs" based emotion.

lol, really? most of the knights here feel they overshot this? I guess I can go through and copy/paste and highligtht all the times here that knights state: this change was perfect, its the best thing that ever happen to the game, if warriors and knights dont have equal mitigation then the game is out of balance. you sure you read this thread? most of the knights DO NOT say they over shot it with this change. Most of the knights say things like, warriors go cry cuz now other ppl have the same power as you.

And now the rallying cry has changed... to "Knights have ALWAYS deserved/needed mitigation parity, or dang near it" (and 2H proficiency too) with a heavy helping of 'self-healing is all-but useless, because raid mobs'.

Please tell me where you seen this big imbalance in arx ? Knights were tanking vitali and magio's in arx 1 , Rampage on the boss and even tanking tita if assigned.
Arx 1 off A You guys were rampage tanking captain titas ghost , and tanking the caster type trash while we tanked the melee trash and we was tanking the boss (until later on).
Arx 1 B A ranger could of tanked him.
Arx 2 Warriors were tanking both bosses here till knights were geared up but knight s were used to tank all of the adds in this fight.
Arx 3 Warriors were tanking the boss , Knights were tanking all the skeletons and the mino when they wanted.
Arx 4 We all picked up the trash and we all could tank and survive on the minis .A good knight could of Tanked Lucia too.
Arx 5 Knights tanked Gordy just fine they also tanked calix(from start to finish) And even backed up the Warriors on lany and survived.

So, where is this imbalance ? Looks pretty balanced to me and you was missing shield flash here which is the single best ability all 3 of our classes has received in 6 years.

And you will never see valid raid parsing data or perfect disc data combined with self healing data will never happen.

And the reason this thread is still going is because , you haven't proven anything except that we are right and even 60- 70% of you agree...

Makavien, I'm sure you find it perfectly balanced to run with two raiding Paladins and six Warriors on roster. As I'm sure Kamea finds it equally balanced to run with 3 raiding Paladins and 9 Warriors. Fortunately, the developers did not agree that one tank class having a massive sustainable mitigation advantage and massive burst mitigation advantage was balanced or good for game. Not rocket science to look at basic numbers and figure out why

And yes I understand this completely dp lowers the hit than mantle absorbs the hit at a certain % and lasts longer now since it is absorbing less damage? and 52% is still >than anything we have left to stack with DP which is where the issue is. If they wanted to boost your mitigation higher than ours why not just do that with your true defensive disc by removing the absorb cap and raising the %?

I am sorry you think the developer did this to make a more balanced roster which is completely not the case. You know why most guilds have 3 paladins? There is maybe 3 good paladins on a server if that. Nice that you ignored our 8 shadowknights too since it doesn't support your logic?

IDK 2hander prof and all the undead in TBM got me to resub, worth it.

Please do so you can be verified as a Mistake.

After warrior stances but before knight stances, on bosses you were comparing 50% LS+innate to 36% guardian disc, as the primary form of mitigation.

~99% of mobs during this time a knight that was competent at healing himself could tank with guardian going -- I saw this plenty of times. From my experience at least, WK2 v1.0 Commander was a possible exception, I forget the timing but I think that was when Phalanx+LS stacking was still around.

Warrior tanking preference was not a reflection of knights inability to do the job under disc.

The issue was, warriors no longer needed LS to tank bosses, and knights are mad, 2 years after getting their first mitigation disc, that they couldn't tank bosses without it.

So lets be clear about something. Knights don't have an issue with an inability to tank bosses, they have an issue with a long reuse disc being a prerequisite.

Haha. Sorry to break this to you, there is many more than 3 good Paladins on each server. There is a difference between good and elite. Yes, I do feel that developers boosted both Knights, so they can perform their "main" roles of tanking more adequately. I ignored how many Shadowknights your guild has, because I didn't care to memorize it and don't have it infront of me currently. I've already pointed out plenty of times how many raiding Shadowknights are within the first 15 guilds to complete TBM raids. Sorry that the many bad Warriors out there can no longer out tank the good paladins by merely equipping a shield

How about....the mitigation gap needs to be close enough that Knights can perform meaningful tanking roles in raids (hint: off tank is not a meaningful role on most raids, nor should one class be vastly superior at it in most situations, especially if it isn't even "their" niche role), but far enough apart that warriors are still "the best" at tanking the hardest mobs.

My opinion:
Before stances existed, I don't think the balance met this standard (knights favored). After stances went in, I don't think the balance met this standard (warriors favored). After stances were given to Knights, I don't think the balance meets this standard (knights favored). Perhaps we're doomed to this cycle back and forth until the game rides off into the sunset.

As to self healing being "all but useless" - those are warrior words, not mine. It's obviously a valuable capability in many situations, but one pretty substantially diminished in raids, especially as the knight that can only heal themselves and not others. In short: it's valuable, especially in the group setting, but not the earth shattering class advantage you keep trying to portray it to be, such as Kamea's ridiculous Anashti group mission with a raid geared tank and a healer that's running around instead of healing analogy. That's a group advantage in a group mission in a group setting. Do you see any Knights regularly complaining about their ability to tank in the group game? I sure don't.

Well what you guys should do is rally together your sk in a group and your paladin in a group and fix the end less circle like some warriors tried to do? And maybe try to get something changed to be more balanced within each of your classes and more class specific and use the fact that you have a sympathetic developer to your advantage ? It would be easier and better for you guys to get it fixed you think? Or you can just keep countering our posts without any facts until a developer finally hears us which will prolly turn out bad in the long run for both your classes?

You do realize that the dev crew doesn't listen to the players when it comes to balance right?

Yes they do . Its amazing you think it doesn't. The warrior class got stances added in the first place due to balance issues.They read posts they make decisions based on parses in threads and private messages. Heck 90%of the reason this forum exists is for balance and bug discussions.
Do you know how many things we as a class have got things made or changed ?

I would list the 20 or so but then people would just trash the post.

I mean hell Sojero you got these boosts due to that post where do the developers see sks..

Like Dzarn or any developer really has time to internally test things with number crunches when they don't even know 100% how each class works anymore.
Just like they do not design stuff based on specific abilities.

You know until the hate meter was made they didn't even have a developer side parser to tell them what everything did ? And how it worked in conjunction with other abilities ?