The info that caused my post was for Fintank saying that "paladins can permanently rock 55% mitigation basically. And then it goes up with Mantle and Armor,...". (titled: 'How defensive abilities work' posted in the Tanks class discussion) Bottom line... just because you see an icon in one of your buff boxes doesn't mean all mitigations are in effect at the same time. I don't get into all of the details like the post in the link. Additionally, lots of people want to pin on our protective spell mitigation recourse as a paladin only type of deal which would boost our mitigation even higher... but the bottom line with that is.. if the paladins in your raid were not already doing it with the warriors, then they are not going to start doing it with a paladin MT on the bosses. SO you either count it before with warriors or you don't; its not just for the paladin MTs. Me personally, I don't like to use the protective spell line if the MTs have a Vie or Shinning just because my focus is usually not on or staying with the boss to continue to refresh the recourse. If the MT has died, I will then try to cast it because vie/shinning isn't a commonly rebuffed spell in our raids.
What Pally(s) complained about not being able to tank? This is madness, I mitigated just fine before this OP stance crap.
I agree, I actually went to lucy and checked the slots vs each other and its vie that doesnt stack. I'm always mitigating the MT when I can do so or remember to do so. (very busy in raids)
I know, I'll just demem my mitigation spells and pretend I need mitigation..... WOW SAD. I'd be embarrassed.
I remember as an SK main tanking in Anguish, Demi plane of blood, SOD, SOF, one really good one was the grounds raid where you had to non damage tank the guy, where our lifetaps and heals were really nice, and other hot raids, UF raids, it wasn't until CoTF and later that I wasn't main tanking anymore because I could be 1 rounded, but it was only by certain mobs. SK/Pal dont need special roles, we are tanks, and there shouldn't be a difference in what each tank can tank, just the way they go about doing it.
But if you can tank anything that a warrior can tank, and you also get utilities that a warrior doesn't get, what's the point of a warrior? You guys are really going around in circles here. War don't get heals. War don't get FD, war don't get lifetaps or on hit heal procs, war don't get res, war don't get mana recourse type spells, war don't get ht/lt or lay on hands. Warriors should probably be able to tank things that knights can't tank. If their superior tanking doesn't translate to some benefit in the game, then it's silly to have, and knights are going to just always be a better choice. Knights should have a role on raids too. If they can't tank anything on a raid, then they rely on their utility and damage to bring purpose to them being at the raid. Not every event involves kiting or offtanking, so the knights value ends up being that they can offtank, which enables raid forces to better do 1/3 or so of events, and then it boils down to utility. Unless they can tank the raid mobs (see previous paragraph for issues with this). There are a few ways to deal with this. 1) make events more tank heavy in ways where offtanks will be required more often. 2) make more events require ramp tank (this is stupid as a total purpose for a class. Do it, sure, but don't do it and then treat it as a cure all). 3) give knights abilities that help to facilitate raids in a tankier aspect than normal. Healing isn't tanky. FD'ing isn't tanky. -maybe give sk's a lifelink ability that is better than /shield, lasts longer, and lets an sk take damage for the target at the sk's mitigation levels. Maybe heals for one will also affect the other in some way? (but this is only useful on events where people aside from the MT that are important to the event will take damage..) -maybe make agro control a more important aspect to raids, and give knights great tools to help with this. Perhaps allow them to bestow their agro to the next tank in a line, and make it more of an involved process than agro currently is. whatever you do, make it something that couldn't be done by the parent classes, and requires a class to be a tank to achieve successfully.
**** Feeding the T----***** I'm puzzled where knights were complaining Warriors are a Threat to us??? You seem to be doing a lot of complaining how Knights are a threat to you actually but feel free to project your displeasure on Mage pets also... I hear Necros are a hot topic also. Actually this is a thread about Paladin Balance so technically a thread about Warriors feeling threatened about Paladins, so far SK could care less here. There are a few other threads with insecure Warriors crying foul about everything under the sun and how they just have one thing and no utility. You should focus your efforts on changing that, I have a raid role and it involves doing more than one thing. Again the patch did nothing to remove Warriors from being Raid Main tanks. Get over it #moveon Well good to know exactly how you feel about how Devs see SK because you have been crystal clear the whole time with your back hand complements for any Knight. Sk are trying to actually carve one out that benefits their class and a raid.
FTFY It was stated many times that the warrior class role is raid boss tanking. It's their one sole niche in the entire game. Sure, knights should be able to tank but that doesn't mean they should tank everything possible. They were never designed to do so. They were designed to be stopgaps at the most and they were able to do exactly that. Now knights can just replace warriors outright. Will they be 100% as good? Maybe, maybe not. The verdict isn't out yet but I do already have a post where an SK was within 900 damage average hit to a warrior and dead equal to another warrior. And before anyone claims the warrior a noob or not good. The average hit is right in line with just about every single parse you'll see.
Wars will still be first in MTO but damn you're right it'll be close. I also agree wars should outweigh the knights in tanking by alot, our spell books more than make up for it. I'm triple tanking UD in PoLife like it's butter now... So sad to see that knights weren't using mitigation spells... maybe a few were... anyone here who is a knight that used mitigation before calling for warlike mitigation ??????
Don't waste your time, look when that account was created and then look at what they have posted. Seems more like it was made to try and create drama where its not needed.
This is not how it works. Please read my post on how defensive abilities work. https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/how-defensive-abilities-work.230743/
Too bad hes being honest I have been offered by 2 knights to record them moloing 3 yellow cons at once with ease with a wizard merc up as they put it I just don't care anymore .When dzarn guts your class because hell refuse to change the abilities he just gave you don't complain because its coming. Oh both of those people wanted to remain anonymous. Oh they both also didn't think you needed what you got .
This was a design decision by the development team without an outcry from the community. Knight community. Yay more power and fun stuff ... War community. Now what? I don't recall a big press from knights for this change. The devs did this one on their own. I'm not really sure on the why, but here we are. And if this continues there is only one path toward balance. Warrior abilities to balance out Knight utility.
The crux of the problem I think is a core one, which is that along the way, warriors have historically accepted what should've been perceived as a completely unacceptable level of imbalance for the carrot on the stick, which was the "Required for raid bosses" role. This has shown itself to be, in a game with a limited population, a bad choice overall. This has led to a class which was a "one trick pony" with a substantial payment to make in order to even be up to standards, while being at pretty much all points below the very top, so very very far behind, not only in utility, but also in basic survival that what evolved is a real monstrosity. A class which serves it's single funtion acceptably in most environments, but can do nothing on it's own, and which hasn't had the levelling experience evolved at all with the evolution of both the game and the MMO industry. The response from Warriors has mostly been "OK, if we're going to accept this road, then we need the payoff at the end protected", we've given up so much in exchange for this trophy position that we simply will not have any part of sharing this top role. That's a legitimate argument, however as time goes by, I think more and more that it's the wrong one. Warriors should be fun to play throughout the game, and other tanks should be able to raid as tanks. This shouldn't be all that controversial of a position, but it is, primarily because of the massive pain that accompanies playing a warrior in Everquest. The dependence on an entourage, the inability to have any crisis management or crisis avoidance. The inability to travel safely without massive problems, the total lack of creativity in skillsets. If warriors were more fun along the way, and didn't, outside of raid bosses, pale in comparison to both Knight classes in power, survival, utility, self-reliance, and frankly, fun, then there wouldn't be this massive requirement to have SOME value, which could only be able to hang onto a role which forces bad encounter design, an ongoing angst-fest between classes, an endless war of stupidity, envy, self-protectionism, etc. We should be tanks, and deal with tank issues, all of us, but it can't happen as the game is now, because the road to the top is so brutal and the powergap OUTSIDE of boss tanking is so dramatic that warriors will always be rightfully resentful. It's probably time to change that, to remove the notion that warriors should be the only of 3 tanks to essentially require an entourage to play this game, and this will require a basic commitment to rebuild, and rethink this class from the ground up. I think that with there are plenty of ways to go about it, while giving the class it's primary melee orientation. The class is pretty much dead without it anyhow, and while this change isn't catastrophic for the game, the opposite, it's probably best for it, it doesn't alter the fact that the change at the top MUST be accompanied with changes from the ground up, otherwise it's nothing but a message to warriors "We really have given up, deal with it, we're a knight oriented game, go play something else"
Agree mostly with your conclusions. I'm not sure the game "needed" to change, i see many, many, guilds beat tbm very quickly with what ever tanks they were using. The premise is, the game is dieing, so to have enough tanks, we need to make knights raid boss tanks. I don't see any evidence of top guilds, or frankly even mid tier guilds, not having tanks though. For the last 15 years Knights have wanted all the ease and utility you describe, but also to be able to tank the boss as good as a warrior. That just wasn't everquest for the last 15 years, it wasn't what it was from day one, if it was, many people would probably have chosen their class differently. So. sure now they gave knights everything they need to tank raid bosses, even easier, (the good ones were already tanking them). So, now there going to rebuild what warriors are from the ground up after 15 years? I just really don't see it. It's more like you said, they're just telling warriors they have given up basically. Or possibly, they haven't given up, they don't understand what they are doing. Whether by design or incompetence they are creating a system where there isn't any role or reason for warriors to exist. They will still exist, after 15 years not every warrior is going to run out and reroll or quit the game regardless of what imbalances go on. It still is kind of unfortunate though. We will see how soon if at all they acknowledge any of this, or "recreate warriors from the ground up".
Yes remain anonymous and post garbage like Paladin can keep 55% mitigation up full time. Yes they have their facts straight alright...go with that persons advice.
SK could enter in the MT Raid Boss rotation for 2 min under this ability. And not to save raid because warriors died, but to do as good as a warrior using Defensive Disc. And you want more for them again ? Don't tell me it's just a "bandaid", it's a full defensive disc for SK that mitigate 50 % dmg against Raid Bosses for 2 min. And the highest the raid boss hits, the best this ability scales. Oh so when reaver bargain ends, yay SK enter in def prof, same state than warriors, and can go on tanking with their 2 mini disc, then going on with Unholy disc etc. This is full time raid boss MT that they are capable to do now. Which paladins can do too, except they don't have Reaver Bargain but better self healing tools. And you want more again ? Haha, so lame. Haha SK need another raid role, they can MT Raid Bosses now. Paladins had a raid role; they won this one too. If warriors will still MT Raid Bosses, it's not cause it will be the most "efficient". It's because they have nothing else better to do, this is just a big warrior nerf, indirectly through having boost knight mitigation to be equal to warriors. As to the "How the devs team see SK" thread, you have been part of the knight (pally + SK ) team who complained "Knights are one rounded against Boss Mobs and cannot tank anything", so your agenda was to be able to tank raid bosses as good as warriors. Congrats you managed to fool devs that it was "true" when it's "very wrong". What is amazing is that you still ask for more boost and role for knights after this. And this fits into 1) Downplaying knights real power to gain more Oh yes, I will focus so that warriors get a mitigation boost back over knights, like it's supposed to be and all "reasonable" EQ players think too it's supposed to be. 35 % def pro was too much, 15 % was enough (counting the stacking with Knight Sedulity)
