Lockjaw Rotation Updated - 8/15/15

Well, it may end up being that in some cases. MM doesn't have that many wizards, so if that is what happens, it won't be us.

That said, it is better than the current situation which results in certain guilds forming up one raid full of wizards, necros, etc., and a second raid with everyone else, then sitting on the mob's spawn point until it pops. Socking is a waste of time, and toxic to the server. Most guilds won't even "compete" for mobs that are socked like this, because they actually want to play the game. It is NOT fun to log in and do nothing for 10+ hours.

A 30 minute window on mobs will still allow people to sock if they feel like it. Any guild that wants to do so could still be formed up and ready before the mob spawns. They just need to wait for 30 minutes before they engage, so other guilds that really DON'T want to sock like that can at least try to mobilize a group to contest it.

In all honesty, I would prefer no rules on engage time, and have true mobilization races. However, as the bosses in classic all spawn in zones which are farmed for items, cash, or exp at level 50, we cannot ask that people stay out of the zone before spawn. Also, even if there was a rule to force all members out of the zone, it would be easily abused. People would just pre-form groups elsewhere, and be ready to port in the moment it pops.

A 30 minute window is the best solution for the moment. It will let the largest number of players mobilize, and compete, for bosses. The more people that are able to be engaged in the raiding aspect of the game, the more likely they are to stick around in the future. We want this server to have a healthy community in the future, instead of being strangled, and socked, to death like Fippy and Vulak.

Yes Azzudien, the agreement was approved by all parties.

That includes line 32:

I'd be all for keeping 50% of the raid targets FFA, but they'd have to be engaged within five minutes of spawning or they go to rotation. If this was adapted, I think the guilds that want fake pvp should also be allowed to double dip and get a normal turn for uncontested targets, too. Maybe, to add a bit of challenge, also make the FFA targets turn into normal rotation if they remain up for twenty minutes.

That line is the root of the problem I think. Both servers. Changes are fine, you need them obviously since some things wont work, some mechanic changes, too many guilds on rotation reveals a flaw etc.

What that line is being used for it "Lobby-for-a-roation-that-is-built-for-me". Start Bribing, seducing, smooth talking(aka be a politician) as many others as you can to see your way.

There was literally nothing wrong with the current rotation. You could make slight changes(3 hours to engage/kill, maybe 2.5-3:1 FFA instead of 2:1) but you have to be scared of these too as they are a slippery slope.

Instead both sides are proposing huge changes for no other reason then it benefits them and if what Darth says is true, Dima specifically initiated the whole thing and wanted him to propose a alternate(meaning different) rotation idea.

30 minute window is a horrible solution and destroys all aspects of fast mobilization which is what you are trying to base your entire argument on. A mobilization race means Mob A spawns at 9 am. First guild there with a raid force engages and kills said mob because their mobilization was better. That's a mobilization race. A 30 minute timer is a complete contradiction to what a mobilization race really is.

5 minutes? That's a ridiculous statement. Get 72 people together. Buff them all up. Med to where you have enough mana to engage. Your 5 minutes are up before you finish medding. If you are going to propose something then you should use some common sense and logic when you do so. Otherwise you bring nothing to the conversation at all. Your entire statement is ridiculous.

I hate the 30 min rule.
On Lockjaw before transfers socking was rare. Right after transfers people coming from Ragefire were excited to see and fight new targets so all 3 top guilds socked at least one target if not more.
I feel like the socking has stopped.

If FI has 70 people in the zone before anyone else has 20, that doesn't mean we socked the target. That means we had prepared ourselves for mobilization well ahead of time by changing bind points and getting port potions. Even I, as a Wizard, know permafrost potions cost ~130pp to make. Fairly useless information for me since I usually bind in permafrost anyways but I know it because it is advertised in guild chat over and over again when we know vox is going to pop.

If a targets like CT or Inny is in window and getting fairly deep into window, there is nothing wrong with sending a medium sized crew up there to farm trash mobs up there. That again is good planning. Anything over a reasonable clearing force is a bit excessive though so if you have more than 40 people clearing hate and fear trash and staying in hate or fear to wait for repops, that is a little sock-like, yes.

In general though most targets on Lockjaw aren't socked so you can stop using that as a crutch to the reason you are losing out on raid targets.

If you aren't willing to track the targets actively, if you aren't willing to change your bind locations for very fast mobilizations, and if you aren't willing to spend the money to get proper potions, than you aren't trying hard enough to get FFA targets. A the 30 min timer is just an idea to compensate for the bad planning skills and readiness.

I disagree. This was the point of that line from the start. This agreement was meant to be a living document.

I was part of the negotiations that resulted in it's creation, and we originally spoke about meeting once every week or two to modify it. Instead, we decided that would be excessive, and settled on only meeting if multiple guilds were interested in modifying it.

We are building a democratic system, which can be changed as the people involved change, or ideas change. It is the only fair way to handle this.

So maybe I'm thinking of socking differently than you but I don't typically think of logging out or binding next to a upcoming encounter as socking, just good raid prep. 30 minutes seems excessively long but if we want to give everyone a chance on the server a chance to engage why not wait an hour or two hours(maybe people need to run from Steamfront to perma and don't have the luxury of ports to compete with).
Regardless I would agree that some buffer so guilds aren't engaging ffas immediately upon pop is warranted(maybe more like 5-10 minutes so people can gate/swap chars) but I question how many encounters are really engaged within minutes of spawning. Does nobody have actual logs for first sightings and kill times?

Thats fine. Some guilds/players hate that we have FFA targets at all. Some guilds/players hate giant zerg forces, and want guilds to be limited to 72 players in zone on raid targets.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. What matters is what the majority wants. Some of it will line up with your views, some will line up with mine, and some may be different than what either of us would choose. The vote is really all that matters.

Just...how?

You're arguing that waiting 12+ hours in a zone for a mob to spawn promotes faster mobilization then making all guilds assemble, move, and engage within 30 minutes?

Just please explain that logic to me?

The current system makes socking the best strategy for getting an FFA mob.

Man, a max of 72 man raids in zone would be nice, I would give you that one! It would be awkward excluding people because they are enchanters, PLD, SK, Rangers, Rogues, or druids though.

My favorite raids so far have been where we killed the revamped Vox with less than 40 people a couple of times and on the first one of those we had 1 death and on the second one we had 0 deaths.

The forces are a bit large right now but FI doesn't even have the largest force numbers wise. It is larger than MM but smaller than AD. Regardless of the force size though, the numbers are guaranteed to dwindle down before Kunark comes out. I'll be curious how all the guilds look 3 months from now and how many come back for Kunark. I predict that encounters are going to be less Zerg feeling than they are now similar to how they felt before transfers happened.

In addition to my above ideas, the fake pvp mentalists would have to turn in their books to the Priests of Discord. Do they really want competition? Man up and do it then.

Who waits 12+ hours in a zone for a mob to spawn? I never have and never will. Socking doesn't really happen on LJ. If you believe it does you aren't in a raid guild on LJ.

Your above ideas show you aren't part of a raiding guild or you are just completely ignorant of what it takes to raid and are hurting whatever guild you are in. Also, when is engaging an NPC PvP? I have never done PvP in EQ and never will. I don't even duel. How am I engaging in PvP when I do nothing against other players?

I agree. The only reason I wouldn't go for the 72 player limit is simply for the reason you stated. We actually don't even have enough characters to fill up a raid most of the time, but from time to time we have a lot of people on, and end up with ~100. A 72 player limit would be painful, because the only way to compete on FFA would require us to keep players out in favor of stacking wizard and necro boxes (and maybe monks and rogues after the next patch).

That said, it likely will start to thin out over the next few months...but, a lot of people will also return for Kunark, so we will see what happens.

The ideas that I support are mostly ones that will make giant raid forces inefficient, and make socking a thing of the past. Of course, if there are people who really just WANT to sock, they should be free to do so as long as they stick to whatever rules are agreed upon.

Ermm, that is not true. It has happened many, many times on Lockjaw. Seems to usually happen for Naggy or CT, but it has happened in the very recent past. The bosses seem to have 22 hour spawn windows, and I've watched people start socking as soon as that window opens.

You mean like we did on the last meeting, so that you again can force another meeting for change?

I'm still trying to figure out who is doing the socking. I haven't seen socking since the first few days of transfers when a lot of RF people got super excited to raid and did it. It has since gone the way of the dodo.

Actually socking is being highly discouraged at least by officers in FL. A few days ago I was chatting with MM member in hate, I was buffing his group with my shaman as I was bored and he was giving me drops if he got any shaman drops. We were laughing because I told him Darth was telling people to get out of perma because there was to many there and it looked like a sock starting. An assumption yes, but the socking is actually happening way less often then just a few weeks ago.

I don't know anyone that likes to sock, unless it's hate or fear at least you can clear some trash for drops while you wait. Naggy or Vox socking is so freaking boring.

Unless I have been lied to, and this may be the case. Of the 6 (7 if you count the newest addition) 4 have indicated they don't see anything wrong with the current rotation. That is a majority of 6 and 7.

Yet here we are, so we're literally having this because 1 or 2 guilds, a minority of the rotation guilds wants them.

So since you are an officer of <Modest Man> can you supply proof that a majority of the guilds on rotation wanted this meeting? I can provide logs of 3 telling me they think the rotation is fine. Or that it hasn't been long enough to propose new changes as very few additional guilds have been given the chance or time to actually qualify.

I'm not playing forumquest. I just want what you say to be true, as per my logs a majority doesn't see any reason to change the rotation. If there is no reason to change it due to majority, the only thing we need to decide at this meeting is to not have another meeting until majority requests one.

EDIT: Really DBG? I can't type forum-quest with no hyphen cause the letters m and q side by side will cause the birth of the anti-christ and end the world?

You mean 2 weeks ago - last week? You may not be bringing 100+ people sock this week, opting for binding and keeping 40-50 in zone, but I guarantee that would change if anyone else brings even a modest force to contest a boss.

In all honesty, nearly every boss in the game can be killed by 40-50...the only one I can think of that would be hard to manage with that many is the queen bee, which is not a boss that can be really socked as she is part of the sky day rotation.

Spin it however you want, but people shouldn't be forced to sit on a boss' spawn to have a chance at getting a kill.

Meeting to discuss change after taking a look at what the most recent changes are like, and knowing what additional guilds joining the rotation under the current rules will be like is somehow bad?

A meeting should be held once per rotation cycle for the longest cycle in the rotation, especially so if the majority wants new changes adopted, new guilds are added, introductions made and better communications formed. Even if that meeting only amounts to sharing concerns and pleansantries.