That's misleading and disingenuous as well, considering I was allowed to switch from the only class we're recruiting to a Ranger.
Unfortunately, the hp of every raid mob seems to get higher and higher as you progress. Aragus is fairly quick, it feels, when compared to Event 2 or Event 4. If Zerkers are only competitive in short, two or three minute fights (and not in a 5-7 minute Aragus burn,) I'm afraid this is going to be a very depressing expansion for you all. The HP pools even depress me. Fifteen minutes against a 60k hitting mob can be a brutal death cycle if a tank line goes sideways.
You mean you were allowed to switch back to your original main of Ranger after having switched to Cleric at the guild leaderships request, then once we got more Cleric apps (some of which went on to make member) you returned to your Ranger. The Rogue/Monk in question would have to be a Zerker to start out with in order for your own situation to be an accurate analogy. Beyond that even, Rangers + Beastlords have higher sustained dps and are more than capable of topping Zerker combineds on nearly every TDS event. Ya, I've seen all the events, thats why my first post said Zerkers are in for a long, boring year if they're in a guild raiding TDS. All of the events are terrible for us, largely because of their durations but also because of the mob mitigation. Praetor Vitio dies in ~2min for us and we're losing to classes with much stronger sustained dps.
Behelit, If you wouldn't mind humoring my curiosity for a moment, I would be interested as to how you would rank melee dps (including hybrids) in this expansion, given that Realm of Insanity undoubtedly has some of the best of each with optimal stacking of aDPS. If you had to give a list of class ranking in sustain for TDS raids, how would it play out? I realize that some may be close, or may not be - but as a generalization, of course.
Rogues, Beastlords, Rangers, Monks, Zerkers. in that order assuming the parse is greater than 600sec. on shorter durations Monks + Zerkers can match or beat out the hybrids due to superior burst. and as Shang mentioned, then there's Casters... raining on everyone's parade.
Ya no one seems to think anything is wrong when casters beat melee in every parse in the expansion. Maybe its time to move on. We will not see anything change and we're stuck like this for a year. To make matters worse wait until he nerfs Melee AE.
Even enchanters are pushing high dps now! Mind you, our top enchanter often beats our slacking wizards . I think this is an AC issue though. It may also make me need to reevaluate the choice of mixed str/dex augs and favour str only if AC is going to remain this high for the future. As for whether or not your class is needed in RoI, that's a guild which absolutely min/maxes at every opportunity it can. However it is obvious that not every class can be the best, as there are just too many classes. It then follows that one class is always going to be favoured by the min/maxing guilds as they want to optimise absolutely everything, including stuffing the raid force with "the best" class (once you have 1-2 of the others for buffs & auras). This DOES NOT mean that the other classes are useless. I agree that we need a bit more balancing of classes, but don't feel worthless just because you're no longer the #1 spot. It's about time it rotated around anyway. I'm suprised on your list that monks are so low down in order. Maybe our beastlords are weak, but they're much lower down with monks being right up there near the top, especially on long events.
Dont think most berserkers care about being #1 dps all the time, we care about having decent sustained and being consistent with our burn, the one and only trick we have, and that is currently quite frustrating at times. We require several other classes to bend to our needs , we require an event that stands still with no adds being cc'ed nearby, we have to damage ourselves constantly or hp lock at 89% with open wound to use several of our abilitys which is bad when AoE's are tuned for players in proper gear at 100% hp not 89% hp, which can result in many deaths. Anyways... Heres a small list of changes id personally like to see for berserker to make it more enjoyable to play. Sustained dps increase Amplified Frenzy line changed into a passive class aa. An enrage style self buff that has a few of the crucial Adps we need at ~75% of the power of the class that gives it. So teamwork is still better, but i can still do my job in the raid if bard/shaman/bst/etc is busy picking their noses, and with proper teamwork this buff could be staggered helping a bit with the sustained increase berserkers need. A single target version of furious rampage on the same timer/reuse as furious rampage. Blinding Fury redesigned, staring at a black screen is bad gameplay design. I could save $15 a month by just turning my monitor off. Maybe im asking to much idk, but lately ive been debating leveling and aa'ing a wiz or mage to raid on, since i could do more consistent dps while not having to deal with all the bad/annoying gameplay mechanics of melee/berserkers.
I personally feel that berserker numbers are a bit out of whack in both sustained and burst. It is fun to see some crazy big numbers when the stars align, but I personally wouldn't mind a fairly substantial lower max burst for some greater duration/repeat/less annoyance and a more meaningful sustained. I know I go against the "burst or nothing," mentality that some berserkers have, but the balance point could use some work based on my play style. Like I don't only attack mobs when they are in bunches of lower level mobs.... I also spend time attacking mobs that are higher level than I am. I don't mind running some parses dummy and group parses and posting them if there is someone with a developers ear wouldn't mind bringing up the cause a bit and to hear some of our recommendations. I can both include and exclude furious rampage to show the contrast as I know rampage is specifically being looked at for changes. I also could do raid parses too so long as I clear it with leadership just in case they would have an issue with it. My gear is rather....... all over, with a few raid pieces, including the ToR weapon, but mostly group gear.
Decap should just fire on everything so we can still lose most the parses but not feel so bad about ourselves. Our main problem as everyone has said is sustained and the duration of our not so special anymore burst dps not being able to carry us much at all anymore as the gap between us and other melees widened further this expac. If the mobs our going to have this much mitigation and avoidance we need our own thunderfoot/massive strike proc skill to prop our dps, not to mention making screaming fury equivalent with rouges/monks HH proc so it's actually useful.
It's noteable that no one has actually posted a parse here. I'm curious what berserkers sustained is really like. I can understand people being hesitant of posting the short lucky burn parses, as although they're fun and a nice little challenge in-guild to see who can beat who, they don't really matter a great deal. (Generally the events that melee do great burns on are really short durations and it's just for kicks and giggles as they're utterly trivial with or without the burn.) But what about a 5min fight say? Or a complete event combined? No one is going to be calling for nerfs based on a zerker parse over that duration for sure.
I think the problem with that is what rotation of discs, what is sustainable, and what ADPS is provided. In the parse they need to share information such as that. Zerkers have become the new necro club it seems. I asked to see what people do for sustained and no one responded, I have tried different stuff with my zerker and I am really really disappointed in his performance. Hes 97 with VoA t2 raid weap and sustains around 8k dps without any ADPS. We dont have any main's that are Zerkers left in the guild. A 102 zerker that I was with, that had CoTF t1 raid weap was doing about 11-12k dps sustained, again no ADPS. They are also red so I miss a lot Those #'s are from a gribble with 2 wiz mercs a war 2 zerkers and a clr merc. Neither of us play zerker as main and could use all the help we can get figuring stuff out. How to do burns are posted many times around here. What stuff to click all the time is as well. The only thing I don't really tend to see is how people rotate discs for group sustained. I am almost wondering if no one does because one or 2 discs by themselves don't do much for dps, it takes the burn order to really throw it up there. When I am running discs one to 2 at a time, I usually see a 1-2k dps increase in sustained, but i don't have all my hastened yet, so I cant keep that up for long. When I hit the burn sets on named (red to me so I miss a lot) I have pumped out 21k dps without support.
What's notable is that you expect people to show you parses as if that does anything... We've been sending our parses into the Devs for the past few weeks. But since you're so dreadful curious, and I'm sure only have the best intentions: Arx1 combined: /g Combined: A praetor august magio in 579s, 30417k @52534sdps - Behelit + pets 30417k@(52534dps in 579s) Arx2 combined: /g Combined: An indagatrix in 708s, 36393k @51402sdps - Behelit + pets 36393k@(51402dps in 708s) Arx3 combined: /g Combined: A mortuis vifens in 644s, 32783k @50906sdps - Behelit + pets 32783k@(50906dps in 644s) Besides, me just posting parses of myself doesnt tell you anything unless you're asking for/receiving parses from all the other classes at the top end.
It's true, I believe, what Behelit says. Parses taken out of context often don't mean much. In a higher tier guild things will die faster thus making your parse shorter and likely inflating your overall dps. In a lower tier guild things will die slower thus lowering your overall dps but possibly increasing your total damage for an event. It makes it hard to compare really from one guild to another, sometimes even from week to week. As far as 'melee' class dps order I think bst, rng and mnk are somewhat interchangeable depending on the event. Longer events do play well towards beastlords, I don't know how the other classes disciplines are written, but from week to week and event to event it changes. Talented players always find a way to do well, and the players who are constantly trying to adapt and improve will generally find their efforts to be fruitful. Personally I love to, or would love to, have a Berserker in the same group as me. Whether you out parse me or under parse me, you bring adps to the group. And while there is little to no glory in improving other peoples performance it is a valuable asset. From the pure standpoint of efficiency I've always preferred to have a Ranger or Berserker over a class that brings no adps to the table in the same group as me, because I know that they will improve my performance, and likewise I will improve theirs. That being said I enjoy the social aspect of this game almost more than the raiding aspect, and I'm often grouped with two rogues and a monk but they're a lot of fun to raid with so I care not at all.
I find it amusing you left Rogue/Zerker out of your "melee" class dps order. Zerkers are interchangeable with other melee only on event 3 because of phase 3 totems being decap'able. Without multiple mobs we can decap on, our sustained isnt able to compete. As far as our ADPS goes, all you're missing out on is aura when not in group. I'd be curious how much it really even benefits hybrids or dual wielding classes in general since you all have much lower crit rate than a Zerker (and aura isnt adding a large % of dps to us).
Why would we? The OP asked for burn parses, not sustained. As far as sustained goes, there are far too many variables to take into account. Do you want sustained with adps or without? Auto-attack + dozen (really!) discs/AAs that we have to mash constantly that burn END like a Hummer goes through gas or without the disc/AAs? Do you want to know how we do cyclying discs & AAs that we'd use on burns so we can do better on grinds but leaving us unable to do a true burn or not? Oh, and do you want to know how we do an DB mobs or even con and higher? Current (and broken) discs or the 96-100 discs that we're still forced to use?
Rallos, I fraking hate that aspect of us. Time and again our all but ineffective (in anything after 2007) "adps" has been held against us. I, like many zerkers, wouldn't mind having our "adps" taken away if it meant that we could actually compete with finger wagglers on a full burn that lasted longer than 2 min.
I left Berserker/Rogue out because I didn't feel like reading a mile long post from you on how I was wrong. I do agree however that the event creation process needs more variance of time durations etc, and at times it feels like mobs are yellow/white con for the sole purpose of not being decap'able / assassinateable. Back when I used to play D&D you could always tell a good DM by how well they allowed everyone in the group to have moments of greatness. As far as competing with 'finger wagglers', that's a whole different subject and likely will have more to do with them being tuned down vs. Berserkers and the rest being tuned to match
Thanks for the insult, not sure where you're coming from about mile long posts or how my opinion isn't worth reading... but ok. For everyone else (since Romance can't stand to read my posts apparently): I'm not saying Zerkers need a boost because we can't match casters, I'm saying we need a boost because we're coming behind Rogues/Beastlords/Rangers/Monks on parses. Considering how one-dimensional and penalized Zerkers are as a "trade-off" for DPS, one would think our DPS would be at least minimally higher than classes that are more well-rounded (and matching Rogues who are the closest to Zerkers in terms of limited class abilities).
