Testing needed: Upcoming changes to mana/endurance return abilities

Feels like there needs to be more thought put into this than there has been, if you plan on nerfing abilities that classes have been balanced around then you need to adjust other things.

Warriors especially will take a hard hit since devs seem to think making raidboss_99 hit for 100k = difficult, making random tank deaths more common than ever. if you go the fragile route wars will be pretty much useless if they get hit by an aoe until rest is up again for another attempt. If you go the lowest on hate list route, well tank just chillin while entire raid gets ate, while maybe entertaining, not really cool.

Wizards i feel would have to be really reworked if you destroy their means to recover mana. It just feels like wizards would go back to being like they were in VoA (except with more burst but over all less damage throughout an entire event which in the end all that really matters, there hasn't been any high dps requirements for raids in forever)

I don't really know what would have to be changed or w/e just hope this gets more thought put into it instead of getting tunnel vision on these few abilities.

So you're saying that since a melee can't do max dps for a few minutes after dying, healers should basically be worthless for 5 minutes after dying?
Raids won't miss 1 or 2 dead rogues. They will miss 1 or 2 dead clerics who can't heal worth a darn for 5 minutes after rezzing.

Personally, I think keeping rest as it currently is but changing the reuse timer to 5-7 mins seems fair and on par with say Quiet Miracles or Mod Rods which only benefit mana casters.

I'm not the one thinking any of this crap needs to be changed. But if they're going to start screwing with things to make it "fair" then let's make it fair.

We're *ALREADY* dealing with melee slow after rez, casters only penalty is mana, and there are numerous other ways to regain mana while there is *1* way to get back endurance for everyone except berserkers(and they already use far more than anyone else).

The effect wearing off from anyone in a raid buffing a warrior or being in proximity of others attacking the npc would be a terrible waste of rest to us.

When we die to random things (which still happens a lot on some raids) ie Rampage tank dies and it switches to you and 1 rounds you , Wild ramp hitting and instantly taking an ae , and the npc switching due to pet /other root type effects we will get a rezz right in the field of battle and they will almost always buff us instantly before we can even get things situated like self buffing (which we are forced to do way to much lately).

We already have to do things like use alliance elixir right away to allow us to cast rest asap and get back into the fight. And the 30% is not even enough for 1 complete last stand discipline combined with hate producing abilities used till the end of a last stand discipline (3 mins)

This effect will put us waiting on the sideline for as long as possible which will then cause more frequent raid wipes in the long run.

Or just sucking it up and running in with no endurance dying multiple times after .

Slow the game down + produce less content that will take longer to get through + charge full price for a staggered expansion = SOE happy happy fun time rolling in $$$$$$$

I respectfully disagree. You are not taking into account 'a 2nd dimension' of mana management.

Let's look at what the wizard class was in the old times. We had our mana pool and no mana regen abilities. When we ran out of mana, we became completely useless and dropped to 0 dps for the remainder of the fight/event. The only 2 remedies were: a) mage rods, limited by their reuse and the availability of mages; b) necro feeds, which turned necros from a dps class into walking mana batteries. But they were small remedies in any case. Then we got Harvests, and necro feeds got stagnated. It was an improvement, but it didn't change the big picture all that much.

At the same time, melee dps classes didn't have any limits to their sustained dps. They could go on forever. When a melee dps fighter runs out of mana/endurance, he can still continue swinging his weapons and do some dps, while a wizard with no mana is completely useless. Initially, wizard burst dps was much higher than melee, so it made some sense that we had no sustained dps. But that didn't last long. Soon enough melee burst dps became comparable with wizard, then exceeded it, while wizards still had very pathetic sustained dps. There was a whole era of total melee dps domination.

Changes and additions of the last 5 years (from Underfoot on) finally gave us sustained dps: the ability to continue doing some damage past the first few minutes of the fight. And it introduced that 2nd dimension that you are not talking about: dps vs mps. We can use low cost spells to sustain lower dps (the same as a melee fighter simply swinging with no endurance), or we can use high cost spells to do more dps for a limited time. And this is great! Wizards finally got the same flexibility that melee dps had. Thank you very much for doing that!

But please, stop using the "endless resources = no resources" mantra on us. It's unfair simply because melee classes don't need endurance to do damage while wizards must have mana to do damage. Endurance for melee is what mana REGEN is for wizards. It's a means to do more than baseline dps.

Just wanted to argue this one point. How much mana REGEN we should have is a separate question. But we must always have non-zero mana.

The problem you mention is not resolved with the changes to Rest on test.

As a warrior I don't *need* a LOT of endurance regeneration. It's 1k endurance for Steadfast (72 secs) or 2k endurance for Last Stand (180secs) and Blast of Anger/taunt is enough to hold aggro. So thats around 14-16 endurance per second used. Sure I'd love to be able to use Ridicule + some other abilities, but the base to do my job is 14-16 endurance per second.
Your change, will require me to not partake in combat for 6-12secs to regen 1500-3000 endurance, which could last me again a long time.

Compare that to a Berserker. They have a HUGE endurance regeneration need. I'm not going to redo the calculations again, but you only need to see say 1 disc of theirs.
Shared Visciousness - endurance cost is 1309 and it lasts 30secs. This is supposed to be a "sustained" disc. A Berserker would have to "Rest" for 1 tic to regenerate the 1309 endurance (slight over an extra 200). So to be able to use this ability, the berserker would have to be out of combat 6secs of every 30secs (basically a 20% downtime). And that is just 1 ability. Using just the sustained discs - volleys, axe, etc , the downtime is 43% for a berserker.

If I'm reading Aristo's post right, the change being proposed would only turn off Rest if you actually take an offensive action yourself. Simply getting on the mob's hate list will not turn it off. I believe that's how his description of the Observer effect translates anyway. One of the alternate options he has listed would be to use the Fragile effect instead of Observer, which sounds like it would turn off Rest if you get on the hate list. That's the one you don't want.

i know this is rather out of the scope for this discussion, but this idea popped into my head and i really wanted to share it because it made a lot of sense to me.

if the INTENT of respite is to allow a newly rezzed tank or melee to be able to perform basic vital functions after a rez (which IMO is a good tool to have), the best way to make that work while reducing abuse is this:

Respite:
Slot 1: Set endurance to 10% of maximum
Slot 2: Reduce endurance cost of all abilities by 90%
Slot 3: only useable under 8% Endurance
Duration: 20s
Reuse: 30s

I will agree that wizards should never be at non-zero mana as Axxius put it. The dps potential at this non-zero mana point should be comparable to melee auto attack dps, not above like it is now.

I will disagree with whoever said that sustained dps is all that matters. My necro is quite good at sustained. If there are other classes that can sustain as well as my necro and burst for much higher amounts at any time they choose then I will be main changing.

I do hope that melee can test out these changes and show how important the endurance resource is. Maybe some new endurance regen abilities will come out of this.

Except there's still no viable endurance regeneration past this point. And inside of 5 minutes in a raid situation there is no way to regain endurance. Melee should have to go sit down for 7+ minutes(if they manage to get out of combat) to regen any endurance above 10%?

29% (if you have rank 3) keeps us functional at least.

I'll keep it simple.
I've had a chance to test this with both dps and tank classes.

This is one of the worst idea's I've seen. This will break all melee dps and tanking classes.
It is no treat to get end after a death or when you run out, this being the best possible way to stay in the fight be it group or raid.

Leave the Rest Line alone! It is not overpowered and is one of the only things we dps/tank classes have to keep from riding the sidelines for half our play time.

While I would argue that the game functioned best early on when endurance didn't exist and mana management was of ultimate importance, this game has long since changed from that approach and going back would be not only painful - but would likely kill this game.

Melees these days are in a bad spot, specifically melee dps characters. Auto attack dps (used to be their forte) is stupidly small. Endurance costs are high, and endurance regen other than rest is practically non existant.

How long can a healer function without sitting to med these days? Indefinitely.
How long can a caster dps function without sitting out? For a long time when not burning each mob.

How long can a melee go before running out endurance? With rest - they could keep chugging. Now? Not long at all.

Why doesn't bard chorus give comparable end regen?
Where is the melee version of clarity?
Endurance mod rods?
Why doesn't endurance regen aa keep up with mental clarity line?

Rest fixed this problem in a less than optimal way ... But it was a fix of sorts.

My honest opinion is that Rest line should just disappear altogether and be replaced with more innate regen, benefits from regen buffs/songs. End feedback put on mod rods, and give melee an endurance harvest with a long recast. If you want it to be a managed resource, you need to give us adequate balance in recovery vs expenditure.

Oh and lets look at the ranks:
Rk1, 21% max
Rk2, 25% max
Rk3, 29% max

Have you people looked at this?
Even if you do raid and get Rest rk3, do you have any idea how fast ANY MeleeDPS/Tank class burns through 29% end?
How about the fact that since its popped right after death and we jump back into fighting we never get to that 29%. Playing my Monk, popping Rest at 0% end nets me about 6% by the time it fades.

On my SK, popping Rest at 0% nets me 15% if I'm lucky and hope to god I don't have to tank again right away as that's nowhere near enough to hold a raid mob on you for any amount of time.

Please.. Just leave Rest alone.. Only think I can approve of is upping the reuse from 1.5min to 2min.

The problem isn't that it is masking other problems with costs and regeneration. You are missing the larger point of a resource. You are trying to create a scarcity issue without fully addressing both sides. Someone made a great example earlier.

The wizard has the ability to continue making decisions on how to use their resources. They can choose to use high cost / return abilities or ease back on the throttle and do some sustained damage. With their claw line as it exists now, they have the added ability to react to what is going on when they use them to get back into a situation where they have more resources. While the numbers might be askew, this is overall good design. It creates scarcity, allows interaction at all times, and higher skilled players will get more of a return by making the right decisions at the right time.

For melee, in the current situation, our short refresh (1 minute or less) abilities are not choices. They are buttons we are expected to use every time they are up, otherwise we are not performing near our potential. I map them all to 1 key, because I don't (and currently shouldn't) think about them. My thoughts are around staying in the optimal melee range (due to punishing AE rampage) and determining the proper order to use my disciplines for the current situation. As my guild has lower general DPS than most, our fights are longer and I have to pay attention to group ADPS abilities and make sure I'm cycling my best discs while they are up, but burning my quick reuse ones earlier. I also will vary my weapon choice by discipline and group composition, so I bandolier 3-5 times a fight.

The situation that will be created by rest changes is one of scarcity without an option to continue actively fighting. I no longer have discs to cycle because I'm out of endurance, and I have no option to continue doing much more than auto-attack damage because most of my buttons cost endurance. I don't have a surprise chance to regain my resources, I can't get some advance way to restore it other than staunch recovery, and I can't ask someone else to give me resources. I saw an ability on beta that looks to be related to restoring it but the ability it was put on made it so I would probably hit it 4-5 times per YEAR. The numbers returned were not substantial anyway. At 100% proc rate I think it would take well over an hour to get back a full pool from it.

If you are going to create scarcity, create choice. Create weaker versions of some discs on the same timers with shorter refreshes and lower upkeeps. Create different versions of our mash buttons so we can choose to sustain or burn. But don't just remove our damage potential without compensation. It's not like melee are leaps and bounds above caster counterparts, and we have other things to deal with to do that damage that they do not (higher dependence on synergy, AE rampage, etc.). We also need to have more choices in gear, some that are higher in resources and some that are higher in survivability, but I think that is for another post.

Also, please remove slow from resurrection effects, it is an unfair burden on melee currently and this change will make it far worse.

Bologna.

A wizard on full burn most definitely has to pay attention to mana. It is extremely easy to use up mana spamming an Ethereal rotation while using Prolonged Destruction. When you start to get low on mana, the issue becomes: how long is this fight going to last? Is the fight short enough to get away with just using a mod rod or maybe I'm going to need more mana than that, and I will need to use Harvest AA. If I do need to use the Harvest AA, I will be useless and do zero dps for a few seconds while harvesting. If it is a really long fight, and Bucolic Harvest is necessary, a wizard will be useless and doing zero dps for 12 seconds. While necro dots are ticking away on a mob and melee are continually swinging away, harvesting wizards are doing zero dps. This is the ultimate resource management. Do I want to continue dpsing and risk running out of mana or do I want to stop dpsing to harvest and ensure that I can make it through the fight.

Why does it matter if you stop dps to cast a harvest before being almost out of mana? Harvests don't regen mana over time, rest regens endurance over time. I won't sit here and say wizards aren't getting screwed, I'm merely asking a question, looking for a genuine answer.

On top of that, casters cast less than 50 spells in most burns. I make 3000+ swings(I'm a rogue, I only get 19 delay weapons, monks will do another 1000 swings more than that). Without pushing for every second of the burn we can't push our maximum efficiency. We still won't touch wizards in damage, maybe zerkers will in a perfect situation, but the rest of us won't unless the wizard is slacking. You say that we can continue swinging away, auto attack on its own is awful damage, but it contributes so we don't have a choice. But don't act like auto attack is the secret to melee dps. It's disc and AA stacking, along with hoping 3 other people click all the right stuff at the right time so that we're even competitive in damage.

All in all we're on the same page in this, despite what I have to say in regards to fairness of rez effects between melee and casters, these changes will equally effect all of us the same. Because if warriors can't tank(and recover after a death) then we're all dead right with them.

Medding in the group game is no big deal, but you can't take a 5min break in the middle of a raid event. If I die early, I'm forced to use rest and fade many times to dps the event, so my only option is to never die if rest changes. -I think I can get through most events with one load of endurance and no deaths without needing rest.

So... if rest could work two ways... one the way your current plan is if you have no rez effects on you, but if under the death penalty it lasts as long as the penalty and regens way more endurance during that time -potentially back to full.

In other words, while our dps is crap anyway because we just died, let us get our endurance back during that time. Make it a quick med for non death situation to 29% and no fighting, and a fuller recovery of most endurance during rez effects while allowing fighting. Keep both timers short. It might take two different discs I suppose, with one that requires rez effects to work.

Where is the post about the changes to Enchanters?
Why can't we get an answer to this change?
This is a large change for the class. Why cant we discuss this?