Testing needed: Upcoming changes to mana/endurance return abilities

Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by Aristo, May 14, 2014.

  1. Bjornulf Apprentice

    I'm a zerker. Easiest fix?

    Rest Rk. III

    SlotDescription
    1:Increase Endurance by 1704 per tick
    3:Cap Endurance (29%)

    Recast Time:90
    Timer ID:12

    Seventh Wind Rk. III

    SlotDescription
    1:Increase Endurance by 549 per tick

    Recast Time:2160
    Timer ID:12

    Unlink our melee regen, drop the recast equal to mod rods or harvest AAs. Fixed.
    Elricvonclief likes this.
  2. Bjornulf Apprentice

    Or just reverse the timers. We can rest more often than Wind, but Wind is the worse of the two.
    Elricvonclief and Brogett like this.
  3. Lilbadaz Journeyman

    Well here are some examples of how Claw nerf would greatly affect Wizards in a group/raid game scene with about almost similar results in this current and future content being almost a fully CoTF raid wizard.

    For example, considering or not you're the only Wizard or DPS in a group fighting The Judicator in PoWar zone, this is the result of the fight in a parse metrical system in a regular basis (with a Druid in group playing Fire debuff aura and Black Wolf form):
    /GU The Judicator in 185s, 26590k @143731dps --- Lilbadaz 16719k @91864dps --- xxxxxx 5068k @27392dps --- xxxxxxx 4267k @27351dps --- xxxxxxx 264k @2015dps --- xxxxxx 246k @1389dps --- xxxxxx 14k @272dps --- xxxxxxx 13k @13177dps

    So that's 3 whole minutes I'm casting my biggest nukes with a combo of Claw of the Flamewing and Ethereal Incandescence after both Twincasts are done, after that I'm either trying to proc a Twincast or refresh Bucolic Harvest to last the whole fight and sometimes I don't get Harvest to refresh for me and I end up casting Force of Line AA's which are very minimal to make a significant damage to this type of NPC mob... also as I do this I also have some resources to get some Mana gained so the result is as if I was doing the same thing to try refresh these. Now, considering you won't always have another DPS in you're group you have to rely on these facts that are very substancial for a Wizard as it is and getting a fair amount of play into this Class, and that you won't always have these resources given to you to even last a fight with or without other people to put into a situation in Group or Raid when you have people undergeared than you or X amount of Skill to each Player, etc. These facts are very important and how they play a role of any group or raid geared Wizard.. specially with Claw line spell being affected for us Wizards. And I also have to mention as a side note if you take away this effect on this spell, that you will be taking a big part of our DPS without mentioning that the Wizard Class won't be considered as we are one (not only) of the many DPS classes that signify certain role. Nerfing something doesn't really make the solution for anything or anybody specially with this current content in these latest expansions and having certain amounts of HP on an NPC with many factors that come into play.
  4. Brogett Augur

    Lilbadaz, I'm not sure I understand this parse. Is it with the nerfed claw or without it (ie test or live)? Do you have a second parse to demonstrate the difference? How much mana did you have at the end of that burn?
  5. Brogett Augur

    As with all things it depends on the duration. For a very short burn mana probably isn't an issue as the boss is dead before you go oom. On mid range burns it will be. On longer ones, well it's no longer burn then and more sustained so I would expect a change in the spell lineup to accomodate.

    Do you have any numbers to put to these? It would be useful to know say how long it takes to go oom (and how big a pool that is), and assuming you do your burn how much dps does that equate to? Ie when LEAST efficient what is the damage per mana? How does that compare to a most efficient spell line up? These are clearly the questions that players will need to be asking themselves when ways to regenerate mana (or endurance) are gone, so we should be coming up with the answers now.

    PS. I totally agree about the annoyances of having regen being tied to procs. Random things like that can be very awkward to deal with.
  6. Lilbadaz Journeyman

    This is a Live version of a parse and yes here is a post a second parse with another Wizard actually that I just found: /GU The Judicator in 150s, 33968k @226457dps --- Lilbadaz 14976k @106209dps (44.09%) --- Wizard 7189k @53651dps (21.16%) --- xxxxxx 6755k @53608dps (19.88%) --- xxxxxx 4398k @36955dps (12.95%) --- xxxxx 607k @4217dps (1.79%) --- xxxxxx 44k @311dps (0.13%)

    It's not actually a 100% valid parse just because the other Wizard had not all of his burn AA's ready at the moment but as you can see the damage is spread greater than the first parse. I still had no Mana to continue after I had used Force of Rejuvenation and Mana regen clickies..so I was completely out after that fight, so had to meditate in order to continue effectively.
  7. Lilbadaz Journeyman

    Was out of Mana about almost the end of the fight but at the time I've used everything I had, and yeah I based this post to specify all I could to Aristo. Btw my Mana pool was about 107k buffed
  8. Yinla Ye Ol' Dragon

    So when were you also going to tell us about this little gem?
    Wizard - Arcane Fusion's crit chance has been reduced due to the spell landing for critical damage more than intended.
    Hard to do a burn parse on Test without taking this change into account.
  9. sojero One hit wonder

    I don't believe that part is up for negotiation/testing and therefore probably wasn't relevant to what he wants you to test. He only wants your burn information for mana usage not dps.

    If this would impact the mana usage as a resource I believe it would have valid testing purposed then. If so please post how that is relevant.
  10. gcubed Augur

    Well, my group warrior will run out of endurance eventually. It generally takes somewhere between an hour to an hour and a half (assuming the normal two to four named mobs an hour). My rogue depletes his endurance pool quite a bit faster and my monk even faster. The warrior pretty much only uses rest when he is killed and then he uses it pretty much before each pull there after. The rogue and monk will very rapidly wind up using rest each pull without ever dying (and long before the warrior). I don't have a berserker, so can't say for sure, but I do work with one on occasion and she bleeds endurance faster than a cleric expends mana trying to keep a ranger alive.

    These changes will affect grouping differently than they will affect raiding. It may be worse for some group makeups than raids, but by the same token some group makeups will hardly notice a difference.
  11. Kaenneth [You require Gold access to view this title]

    I'd like to see player tanks die less.

    On raids that the players are appropriately geared/skilled for, tank changes should occur because the current tank(s) are out of Endurance, not because they are out of Hit Points.

    So, hopefully, these changes will be accompanied by boosts to tanking discs/abilities.
  12. ~Mills~ Augur

    I agree!

    A step further If these changes for wizards sustained do not go live can we expect to see swift dots unnerfed? Smaller dot increases each expansion undone and the standard upgrade %'s that were missed added in? Death blossom thrown out the window and death bloom boosted slightly with the timer pushed out to 5 minutes? Gift of Deathly Resolve changed to no longer require forced ramp up time and simply offer 10-15 twincast procs? These nerfs, changes, design and stagnation all came about because one class that was good a sustained was told they could not then burst well as well, even if its not fun.

    Fair is fair so these items need to be undone if another class continues to be allowed to do it all well in the name of the game no longer having trade offs because its not fun.
    menown likes this.
  13. hakmer Augur

    any of the proposed changes will have a huge negative impact on the group geared berserker, who has very close to the same endurance costs as our raid counterpart, with a vastly inferior endurance pool to draw from. They already lack any significant form of sustained dps. Lowering this much more might be the death of the group geared berserker all together. With the penalties of not having optimum group set up (which means in order to get you have to have no pure tanking class in group), Group geared Berserkers are already low on the totem pole of dps classes people want. The difference in caster sustained and even caster burn dps for group geared toons is still pretty significant. Lowering the melee's ability even more is counter productive. Imagine how you will have players feeling when they get told.. "sorry my caster merc doesn't have to med as much as you do and does more damage." The changes have zero upside in this regard.
    Xeladom, Dre., Kreacher and 4 others like this.
  14. Ravengloome Augur


    Hey atleast now I won't be able to tell berzerkers "Sorry i'd rather have a monk or rogue in my group"!

    So 3 (4 if you count warriors) classes are going to be made useless...

    Thats malarkey on a grand scale.
    Fenudir likes this.
  15. Redyls New Member

    this is going to destroy berserkers as a class, especially for grouping which is one of sonys primary focuses. im always out of endurance while grouping and the only saving grace is the the endurance regen from this skill. without it i can pretty much just forget about grouping and raiding... especially raiding. nerfing it in any of the ways described will leave me nonviable as a dps class. and if sony thinks im just gonna reroll a new character cause of their bad nerfing habits and their non existent class balancing skills, then their not gonna see any more of my money. rather than nerf what little we have, heres a thought try reducing the cost of the endurance for our skills, or maybe increasing our regen to the ever over flowing rates of mana regen. or maybe just leave us alone...
  16. feiddan Augur

    Here's a proposal: Add "Endurance Preservation" to our gear. As a melee, it's a bit frustrating when most of my equipment is just +STATS and does little to effect my DPS.

    Groupers can get a ~25% Endurance Preservation Foci. Raiders ~40%. Maybe tweak it a bit if the random 1-40% roll can't happen every tick. Running around tonight killing trivial mobs doing some farming, I'm running out of endurance quickly (without cycling my discs - just kicking and punching). No big deal, it gives me an excuse to take a break in between and refill my beverage, but I imagine I'd be a real drain on a group.
    Xianzu_Monk_Tunare and Tanecho like this.
  17. Xorsazis Augur

    I think its been said before, but I'd like to reiterate it anyways.

    A good solution to me would be to turn Seventh Wind line into a harvest type ability for endurance, I don't know if a copy/paste is necessarily a great idea, but the numbers are better left to the debaters. Unlock the ability from the Rest line of discs.

    Then change Rest to be a longer refresh. What currently makes it so powerful is that it's up every 90 seconds. I think if the Seventh Wind line were changed to something above, this would be a little less of a crutch.

    Currently, changing it like it is proposed will break everything for the pure melee classes. Speaking as a raid Warrior, death recovery isn't an option: it's mandatory. I HAVE to be ready to jump back in as soon as I'm rezzed. And with any event comes stupid deaths caused by an unlucky turn of events. Punishing 54 players by wasting their time because the mob FD's the main tank and then I get rounded out of surprise is not a constructive or useful way of solving a minor problem.

    As far as the harvest change, I can vouch that my wizard never has "endless mana". For him to DPS effectively, he has to use up the pool he has, and it hardly ever works that harvest repops multiple times in a row. If you are gonna drop the % chance, I propose unlblocking Twincast from the refresh options as well.

    There are multiple suggestions on how to better fix the issue as well. Please abstain from making these changes as proposed.
  18. Tanecho Augur

    I suggested a while back some additional foci for melee. A special damage focus (flat or percentage, either way it's something). Splitting Cleave into specials and normal melee (tiger claw crit is awful right now, and rangers lost crit on kicks too I believe... no bash crit either.) Endurance preservation would be a good addition to that as well. Hastened disc timers (cut 3-5% off all combat timers) would be neat too.
  19. Kreacher Augur

    Endurance is not the limiting factor of DPS/Abilities.

    The limiting factor is melee/tanks disc timers. They are trying to introduce a problem which in reality doesn't exist.

    The reason Rest was brought in was to get people playing rather than sitting around waiting for endurance, and this is pretty much why there have not been any complaints about the endurance cost for some discs, endurance AA's or endurance regen abilities.

    Now they want to go back to a sitting around method. Berserkers are going to be sitting around 25secs in every minute. You might as well delete the Shared Visciousness line of discs because they are uneconomical - they will cost berserkers 6secs in downtime if they use them. And the DPS benefit is too small.
    Even something like Brutal Volley which should be a staple of Berserkers and appears to be relatively cheap at 191 endurance , the cost/benefit almost makes it not worthwhile. The reason why it is "almost" is because Volley can proc decapitation, which then makes it worthwhile. So berserkers are going to be using their discs on lvl 99 and below mobs and then conserve endurance on the 100+ ones.
    feiddan likes this.
  20. Ratbo Peep Augur

    People that are sitting around rebuffing aren't "blowing through" a quite limited release for CotF.
    When you take into account that these changes were put on Beta at the same time as CotF T2 content, the "coincidence" becomes less of one.
    -R