Testing needed: Upcoming changes to mana/endurance return abilities

Discussion in 'Test Update Notes and Bug Roundup' started by Aristo, May 14, 2014.

  1. Kathylynn_Unity Augur

    You can give most people all the DPS potential they could ever want and they'll still stand around doing nothing until asked to burn. In most cases, I see people that apply themselves doing well.

    You are only going to get skewed results if you ask for them here. That has certainly been proven time and time again.

    3σ parse data? Time to pull out my -2σ. Wow, look how unbalanced this is!
    Baramos likes this.
  2. Brogett Augur

    A couple 10 min parses (yes I know, bear with me) with shaman unity, clicky haste, all my attack and overhaste clicks, vs the 103 level test dummy. Importantly NO locked disc durations. They totally break parse vs other classes due to making the procced HH perma on, lethality perma on, etc. However it also nerfs ability to get a long parse - hence 10min.

    Baseline was autoattack + endurance free stuff (backstab, epic etc) and knifeplay. 3 min of knifeplay on, 2 min not on, then repeat. That takes us to 10min. Parse was 30k (well 29.9, but frankly it's +/- 1k or so anyway I expect).

    Then I did two 10min parses of everything goes. Big discs (Rogue's Fury + Frenzied Stabbing/Twisted Chance, epics, spires, gullible mark, etc. Followed up by Knifeplay, Executioner's, Razor's Edge, Knifeplay again - and we end up being able to repop the initial discs once more after 10min). That's essentially an example of sustained parse doing the full works, if we had infinitely long fight with infinit endurance (drain was 35-40k during that time). They came out as 45k and 43k. Obviously peak was higher - around 80k for first minute (note no external support), but this is 10min duration.

    So give or take we're around 30k when keeping up with endurance regen (I could have clicked a couple other abilities, but very sparingly and nothing high dps compared to knifeplay) and an extra 50% more when using discs over 10 min cycle.

    That's lower sustained than the 34k wiz parse on same mob and lower burst. Mitigating factors though are wiz had mod rods, so some external support. Maybe we're close.

    Note I am fully CotF T1 raid gearred. I'd do FAR less as a group player.
  3. feiddan Augur

    Since these changes are being reversed on Test, could we get an update?

    Has the dev team changed their decision about this?

    Are you removing our ability to test them (and give experiential feedback) only to nerf us anyway?

    Is this being postponed until later - perhaps with changes to the way we are able to regenerate endurance, as to be a more comprehensive change rather than a nerf?
    Yinla likes this.
  4. RS78 Lorekeeper

    “Spell slow. If they're going to say that death needs to have a penalty and ignore melee slow, then make it have a real penalty and quit punishing HALF the population.”
    that I quoated was stated in this thread, that is what my responce was to, maybe you skimmed over that one.
  5. Yaldin Journeyman

    I've been playing a wizard for years. I came back at the beginning of RoF and have played continuously for a couple years now with claws.

    I am in full cotf and t2 RoF raid gear with a few pieces of t3. I carry a 105k mana pool. You simply CANNOT burn with harvest having this kind of refresh and no way to refresh it . Because of the concern for "resource management" wizards are going to become a second rate dps class. We can burn for 2 minutes, but then we'll suck for the rest of the fight. If we try to stretch it out, we become a crappy damage over time class.

    We can't live for 2 minutes of burn glory or otherwise be a crap DPS class and be considered desirable. Syllable of refreshment does not unbalance us for several reasons - it's very unpredictable, you need to cast a fairly long cast time spell for a 6% chance at getting it, harvest itself has a very long cast time and is interrupted often by AEs.

    Harvest when used with syllable is generally good for propping up your DPS at the end of a fight - in this model, we either have a 2 minute window where we're good, and then we'll either run OOM or be casting very tiny dps nukes, or we become a second rate DPS over time class. This isn't resource management - there should be a tradeoff - but this would mean rebalancing our spells, not this ability. There should be something between "burn of glory" and "crap DPS class over time" - right now - there isn't.
  6. Brohg Augur


    This is a good description of my experience playing the 78k endurance Szilent linked in my sig. Barring Rest, bottom out in 15 min or so of regular play.
  7. Drakang Augur

    Yeah for the splash change messing with established order of things. Karana 1 raid pretty routine to splash off the dot. Now works about 1/3 the time. Not gonna wipe somebody that has it down but big change to the way things have worked for months.
    Yinla likes this.
  8. Apocalyps Elder

    I honestly think they change things that dont go well with the raid encounter they are developing instead of being smart and maybe making the counters on dots and things on the new raid maybe 2 to 3 times as much as previous raids they would rather nerf abilities instead thinking it will have no consequenses on previous raids oh were gonna make the most mana intensive raid and endurance so lets nerf any ability people have to sustain
  9. Zantarr the White Journeyman

    How about you use dev time to do something useful , like make better content , or releasing one zone and raid at a time , yall too free with that nerf bat and honestly I wish you would just frigging stop already
    Gyurika Godofwar and Yinla like this.
  10. Zantarr the White Journeyman

    just......stop...already
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  11. Baramos Augur

    haha

    I saw number games like this played at a place I worked for many years. It was so bad that each division had a bit of "pocket margin" so that their portion of a complex product always worked in simulation.

    It was so bad that when the physics of real life systems encroached on the pocket margins, each division would have to be "mined" for this margin so that a system which must work in RL would work in simulation after (linearly) adding in all the variances (hah).

    Because after all, the only thing writ large and cometh down the mountain was that thy spreadsheet must never have a red cell, lest it be broken, and ye blamed.

    There is a lot of pocket margin out there ready slip in and create bared teeth, cries of pain, and viscera.

    I can't wait.
  12. Ratbo Peep Augur

    One can't help but notice that the CotF T2 patch came to us with more nerfs than it did raids or HA's.
    Also, I note that most of the discussion revolved around nerfs and proposed nerfs.
    Most of us would rather be discussing content, bugs, ideas - etc.
    -Rat
    Gyurika Godofwar and Fenudir like this.
  13. Yaldin Journeyman

    I think this is likely true because between needing to roll out new content quickly for the rest of CotF's short lifespan, test that content, and also prep for the new "mega release" cycle where everything is released at once, they are finding that zones take too long to code, and that new raid mechanics take a long freaking time to code too. In order to generate enough content in enough time with enough difficulty, they're having to use existing raid mechanics in new ways rather than developing new ones.

    They're also finding the mudflation has caught up with them, and that it's hard to do something new without breaking past encounters - consequently they want to be able to roll back some of the numbers to amp up the difficulty artificially rather than coming out with something that is challenging on its own. We this in the new PoWar raid which no one has beaten because they amped up the numbers on the mobs so much that the current player design can't keep up, while when CotF was released, all the raids were beaten in a day. ToR is a variation since it tries to both "debuff the mudflation" while also keeping the mobs numbers pretty high relative to the level of that debuff (and with ways to mitigate it).

    Personally, I find the zonewide AE on the group version of ToR to be annoying as hell. Harvest refresh is a practical necessity on it and even using my weaker more efficient spells and full raid gear I have trouble maintaining my mana pool throughout. Eliminating mana conservation totally basically makes our inefficient spells practically worthless since they can burn through a pretty high % of mana especially given the length of the fight and the amount of spell mitigation from the mobs.
    Gyurika Godofwar likes this.
  14. Snyine New Member

    personally i think this is the cheap way to fix things tuning players to content and not content to players. Forcing this change is to drastic to the game it will break the game for to many players. People will leave in droves if this goes live.

    Throw up a debuff in zones you want to make things more "balanced"
    a debuff that blocks mana refresh or blocks the mele end regen effects.

    Making this a hard code change to the innate abilities will break groups just trying to level on normal content when its the raid area your most concerned with.

    Think about what area you want to see these changes mostly take effect as a non raider and casual player just because i didnt burn through levels doesnt mean it should be made 2 or 3 times harder because you want to balance raid content.