Work In Progress: What's Next for Arena PvP

Most of the points made in this thread are pointless unless something is done about the passive buffs to precision and might in skill points you can be essentially tier 10 pvp In terms of damage if you look at the damage difference between tiers will never be anywhere near balanced until you change thus

Wm needs to be adjusted for pvp... It's getting altitude out of hand especially in large group maps where you can't where flyers can sneak in some wm combos at the top of the screen before being noticed

Wrong again, now you have proved that you are not reading this thread. I and others have stated countless times how to counter channeled attacks without interrupts. It simply requires proper timing and execution. Just because you feel that the only way to counter a channeled power should be an interrupt, does not make it true. The game evolved passed the vanilla trinity of counters. Sure they still exist and work in some situations, but like every ability in this game, there is a proper time and place to use them, no one move is the solution to everything.

As far as what HT did, you are wrong yet again. HT changes how counters for certain abilities and mod combos work, it does not make any ability invulnerable to all counters, as you continue to falsely claim. There are plenty of counters to channeled abilities with EC and rolls with TM, the only requirement is that one is knowledgeable in our combat system as a whole, and also good enough to execute said counter measures in combat. Please go re read the descriptions of the mods above, and then re read this thread. You clearly missed a lot of important information.

As I said, game evolving mechanics, like HT, should not be removed because a few people may or may not have trouble properly countering or executing said mechanics. MMOs evolve, not devolve, this is why HT should remain in PvP. Not only was HT designed for both PvE and PvP, but it raises the bar for skill , strategy,mans execution in PvP. I personally enjoy complex PvP, this is why my vote is for HT to stay. Whatever happens, happens. Good players will still be good players regardless of what changes, if anything changes at all.

Okay now how do you counter a active channel power without interrupting it pls explain because your going out of you way talking all these counter measures that existed without ht in game. I would love you to stop my miniguns while active with the ec mod many have tried to continually fail. I am not wrong to say ht added no skill because everything you speak of was present way before ht arrived. Which makes it complete fact that ht took away direct interruptions of rolls and channeled powers while active.

If someone can block then roll into tm to avoid the bbreaker that is to counters that mod is preventing from taking place which is something I see happen on a daily. So not only is the roll invulnerable to interrupt it also can be exploited to prevent other counters as well. Just because you feel ht adds diversity and complexity does not make it true. Because I sure enough see a lot of acrobatic trolls and healers running around wheres the diversity.

If you actually read the descriptions for the two mods giving you a hard time, you too would fully understand how they work. Here let me requote myself for you.

Like I previously advised you, If you actually went back and read this thread you would see the countless examples I have given as to how to counter the EC mod, and the TM mod. If I can counter these mods on a daily basis, so can anyone else. It just requires the proper skill and timing in order to be executed properly. That's the deciding factor in who wins a match HT vs HT.

We all have access to HT. HT is not a random drop, but something earned by all players the same exact way. Everything in HT is available to all roles and players. The only difference is who is better at executing their counters and executing abilities without being countered. This is also why HT belongs in PvP. The only way someone loses to another utilizing HT in any form, is if they had poor timing and execution. Period.

Frank, go back and read this thread again, you clearly missed a lot of important examples and information. All the information you are asking me for right now is here in this thread, I assure you. Also, to reiterate, just because an interrupt doesn't work in some situations, does not mean that another counter measure does not exist to counter said mechanic or strategy. Nothing is invulnerable to everything, and far more counter measures exist other than block, interrupt, and block break (aka the vanilla trinity).

Ok there is no way to get you to detour from you repetitive automated script Im absolutely sure of that now. You clearly ignore all question thrown you way in the likely hood that you maybe incorrect. This is my last attempt to get a direct answer from you.

Now the definition of counter measure it says to stop or prevent this is a fact. With that being said please everyone pay attention to how he is going to tumble mastery this question. While in a channeled power animation with ec mod active can you stop and/or prevent them from continuing and are you suppose to be able to?

On the contrary. I use a panic or encasement while someone using their EC mod. Is it a sure shot? No. But it can be done. The sure shot is the standard interruption that without the EC mod, would be your go to counter. The skills lie in the application of these mods, not their executions. It's a matter of "when" will this mod benefit me the most not "how". Using regen shielding as a troll with high resto and dom coupled with my 35% SC HoT, idc what kind of awesome level mechanics you have, I'm not gonna die. Using the EC mod as a troll ensures a hard stun plus a panic most of the time I throw terrorize coupled with the weakening field mod and my menace. I can better sustain my cc effects giving me plenty of time to lay down some weapon/power combos for a slow and methodical kill.

Channeled powers have decent cast times, just because you cannot lunge them out of it or get over their defensive buffs doesn't mean you don't have options. Anyone just spamming their finisher is just wasting power because it's only buffed when the enemy has low health and they will be out of power and sodas eventually which is your golden opportunity to break out of your turtle shell and do work...

You dont have any counter options when there should be a counter option. Its not about ppl spamming 35% moves thou some do it. There are way more channeled powers then 35% for example im hl I use minigun. Im saying this out of experience it was being used against me so I started using it so those who would did not have advantage over me. Now on certain occasions not always but using minigun or other channeled power with ec mod you are able to manipulate counter windows. Just as with the tm mod you can hit block roll into tm to avoid a bbreak counter same idea except it happens more with tm than ec. On occasions I can throw a bbreak clip with minigun and avoid the counter. Now the block break has nothing to do with interrupting minigun yet sometimes these mods will override certain counters that have nothing to do with what mod you activate; but what you do prior to activating that mod in which you should be vulnerable. So since you have block before you roll into tm you should still be vulnerable to a block breaker since its the roll thats invulnerable not the block.

If you look back in this thread when I posted the various counter measures along with the definition of "counter measure". If you go back in this thread and read everything in its entirety, you too will see many of the answers you are asking for. In fact, I have already answered this question for Risk many times, all you need to do is go back and re read this thread. The answer to your question is also listed in the description and explanation I provided for you when we went over the Empowered Channeling and Tumbling Master mod a few posts back. I have explained MANY counter measures used through out this thread. It seemed you missed a lot of important information throughout this thread.

Chaos International also did a good job explaining a few counter measures. However, since I have some spare time right now, I too will help explain this to you...

EC can be countered with a properly timed CC that does not come from a weapon. This means any power that stun, encases, panics, knock back/down, etc. Another way to circumvent the damage from a finisher is to A) use a shield, B) use a soda at the same time, C) or the easiest way, ensure that your health does not fall below 35%, because when a finisher is used on any enemy above 35% it is an absolute waste. All of these stop or prevent these abilities from being executed or prevent the damage from said ability. Therefore, these are in fact counter measures. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=define counter measure

As I said, timing is everything. Just because interrupts will not counter a finisher does not mean another counter does not exist. I also want to point out, that if anyone loses to someone spamming a finisher, it is that persons fault for allowing it to happen. No move is invulnerable to all counter measures. We all have access to the same mods, the same trinkets, etc within HT. the person who wins is the person who fully understands the combat system, and has the best timing when executing both the abilities and the proper counter measures when these same abilities are used against a player. That is the very definition of skill. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=define skill

I will also restate yet again, just because a few people may or may not have trouble timing their counter measures against certain mods, does not mean HT trinkets or mods should be removed from PvP. HT adds new strategies, new tactics, more depth by forcing you to think about both offense and defense constantly. HT raised the bar for skill and awareness in PvP, and it should not be removed for that exact reason. MMOs don't devolve, they evolve. HT evolved our game to the next level as HT was designed for both PvE and PvP. That is a fact.

What you need to accept Frank, is that far more counter measures exist than just block, block break, and interrupt. Period.

Dude, for the sake of this thread staying constructive and having a real discussion... Can you please just stop repeating the same 5 paragraphs over and over? We're on page 71 and every page you're saying the same thing.

This is hindering everyone's ability to talk about anything other than home turf in pvp... Just wait and see what the devs do, I think both sides have proved their point. You repeating the same essay on every page of this thread really not necessary, nor is it really constructive

Thank you finally we can agree that all ht did was add invulnerability remove interrupts and put emphasis on other methods which already existed. Which offensively makes pvp easier and makes defense more complicated taking the ability to interrupt every roll and channeled power attempt.

Also for the record this isn't about finishers alone this is all channeled powers. And you are incorrect there is no direct way to counter ec while active once character starts blinking white its nothing you can do. Your repeatedly talking about the split second you have before the mod activates you have to get lucky; using things that aren't going to work everytime like stuns panics encasing etc. So if there is a choice of using skill to interrupt everytime or getting completely lucky within a split second with a stunning move which may or may not work I choose skill all day. And since when has a soda become a counter lol.

Honestly, pvp is broken...
I mean, I thought blocking was a defensive move...
not an offensive move that can in most cases, halve your oponents life.

So I went back and looked at Tunso's OP again to get a refresher on the planned/possible changes, since almost everything has been lost in the last 70 pages, and I have a few non-HT questions/suggestions:

- Any chance that we can get one standard cola as is the case in Legends? It's simple that way, and since colas are one of the most basic elements of the game, it makes sense to me that they all just be uniform. The strategy would come in when you use them rather than what ones you have.

- Since WM hits sooo hard, all of the roles have some degree of serious damage potential, in addition to their other bonuses and benefits gained from WM. As a result I don't know if it would be best to buff the support roles' damage any higher than removing the damage penalties of Tanks and Healers. Successfully using WM makes up for any confidence-style damage boost that would be added, IMO.

- If the complete split between PVP and PVE means that PVP gear inflation will no longer be an issue, does this mean that the gap between the tiers of PVP gear won't be so high? Better gear almost always trumps better skill as of now in my experience, these changes could potentially make it so that better gear gives you an advantage (a really big one as the tier gap increases), but not an insurmountable one.

Hope this draws attention to some of the other elements of the planned PVP changes

The one fundamental flaw of Home Turf evolving combat past its vanilla state is the fact hometurf is tied to a DLC, which means its not the standard for everyone, but rather the people with access to it, and this in turn is counterproductive to balance, and may confuse new players.

I'm not sure exactly what you are reading, but you definitely aren't reading this thread properly. You keep falsely claiming that these mods make you invulnerable, and they do not. These mods make you immune for the duration of a channeled attack or heal for 2-3 seconds, to ONLY interrupts. and it also makes one immune to standard CC effects (weapon attacks). You can also still take damage during the channeled ability. Interrupts still work for other situations and countering other abilities and combos, so I am also not sure where you are getting the false notion that interrupts were removed because of HT. You also continue misusing the word invulnerable.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=define invulnerable

Now that we have the definition of the word invulnerable, we now know you are way off base and spreading false information. Last I checked, being able to prevent someone from executing a channeled ability coupled with the EC mod via a CC, is the exact opposite of invulnerable. The fact that I can still damage players during the channeled ability while they have the EC mod is the exact opposite of invulnerable as well.

Also, I never said I couldn't prevent one of these channeled abilities every time. Again, in PvP timing and execution is everything, if you perfect your timing and execution, as well as get good at anticipating and baiting your opponent, you can prevent these channeled abilities coupled with EC every time. If someone gets their channeled ability off without me stopping it, it was because my timing and execution was off. That's the skill that HT brings to PvP, it rewards the players with the best timing and execution. There is no luck involved, I do not have trouble in the situations you continue to describe, it sounds to me like timing and execution is your biggest problem right now.

Just because a few people may or may not have good timing and execution to prevent these channeled abilities coupled with EC every time, does not mean HT mods or trinkets should be removed. It means those players having trouble need to step up their game and get better with their timing and execution. Just because you can't counter a channeled ability every time you call it luck, when it isn't. The way to counter these is actually very similar to how Weapon Mastery works. You have a very small window where timing is everything. There is no luck involved with WM, and I assure you there is no luck when it comes to countering these mods.

The main thing you need to understand, and come to terms with, is that interrupt is no longer the only way to counter these abilities. You have to take a hard look at your tool box and actually learn what works and what doesn't. You have to master your power set in PvP, and you have to master controlling the fight by baiting your opponent and anticipating their every move. This is part of that depth and strategy I was saying HT adds to PvP. HT should not be removed from PvP because some people are having trouble understanding basic game mechanics. Stop blaming HT and start perfecting the skills needed to succeed in PvP, timing and execution.

P.S.

According to the the definition of counter measure...

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=define counter measure

A soda is classified as a counter measure since it is an action taken to counteract a danger or threat, since it does restore your HP from the damage inflicted upon you by your opponent (the danger or threat).

This is why I have stated over and over again, there should be two playlists under the Arena tab, one with HT and one without HT, and both playlists should share the same map rotation. Let the community in game decide what they prefer. Those that like complex and strategic PvP, can go play the HT play list. Those that like simple vanilla PvP can go play vanilla PvP. Everyone wins.

At the very least I feel this should be implemented for at least 3 months for a community vote, then the list that is most played remains and the other is removed. Worst case scenario, they remove HT entirely from deathmatch and leave it entirely in objective game types. This would be another way to please both sides.

Here you go with definitions again. No where have I said a person is invulnerable to damage while mods are active it clearly states invulnerable to INTERRUPT not damage thou the ec mod mitigates damage as a shield or blocking does. So who here is spreading misinformation.

You dont have to say if you can interrupt a channeled power with ec mod active I know you cant especially ones like minigun which does a stun and push back of its own. Instead of talking to ppl like they dont know what they are talking about you should acknowledge their experience lvl before you assume.

Ive never said I have problems using ht mods or having them used against me I do fairly well against anyone. Im simply acknowledging the contradictions of the core mechanics and manipulations of the counter windows. You can say that it doesn't exist but that statement in itself is misinformation.

With this logic, any power set tied to a dlc would confuse new players... What a useless point to make.

You wouldn't suggest removing dlc based content in that regard would you?

Since the devs were banking on feedback regarding certain changes and the way this discussion has gone, it's safe to assume any decisions made will alienate a portion of the player base and the feedback garnered so far has left them with more indecision than not. EVERYONE please drop the HT debate, it stalled out numerous pages ago and isn't going anywhere until a dev chimes in.