W.I.P. Combat Balance - Jump Canceling Solutions

here are a few options for you guys :

#1. make a jump cancel cost a % of supercharge.

#2. change the jump cancel mechanic into a re-activate power to stop it mechanic, this way you could make it cost power to cancel.

#3. turn the R3 button into a animation quitter with a cooldown and a power cost. (you could give it any kind of creative name think along the lines of super combo button or something like that) and turn jump cancel into a dmg cancel aswell so it can only be used to escape.

#4. simply make canceling an animation with a jump cost power (dont know if possible?)

#5. jump cancel now also cancels damage so it can only be used as a escape kind of move.

#3 would have to be my favorite suggestion it would give all powers the benefit of building up super ''clip'' combos, and using a fair cooldown/power consumption to use it could make it a verry balanced part of the game.....

#1 and #4 and #3 is possible but takes more work than necessary. The easiest thing for them to do is adjust the dovetail. Making JC cost power or supercharge would be more hurtful than helpful because JC is also meant to escape tricky situations.

Someone already posted who was for and who was against.

Hi, biggest point for me as a flyer: why jump cancel?
I like the idea of canceling an action to be able to block or roll. Back in the day as a fire-dd in nexus i was forced to land to be able to cancel the mass detonation and roll out of the aoe's.

Just let us use a hotkey or breakout to cancel an action.

Now to the point of clipping. You said you want to make the game faster with clipping. Does faster means faster damage or more actions per minute? If u want faster dmg then i have no solution for u. If u mean more action then i would have one.

Here are my 2 cent's...

The whole point of the clipping idea is to cancel an animation to be able to cast a not harmfull superpower or block/roll. I like that.
So let hit happen. Always! Just let jump, roll, breakout, all superpowers or even a hotkey cancel others.
How you solve the main issue of hidden actions and burst dmg?
Scale the damage, the duration of pi, length of DoTs with the duration of each action to the point all running actions are canceled. Similar to the chargeup hold atttacks.

thats all, greetings Ado Ra

@Helvetica

Thank you for explaining that. You understand where I am coming from completely.

@Thread

Yeah, no one is trying to get rid of jump canceling as we need it to cancel our animations to avoid imminent death, like the red balls in PW. What I am trying to get rid of, and apparently so are the devs, is jump canceling to front load damage. It was never intended to be a mechanic for damage purposes.

By making the dovetail/delay the same animation time as all the animations, people would only use it to avoid imminent death. It would no longer be a tool for dealing damage. Now I play every type of DPS, and I can tell you this is not as big of a deal as most are making it out to be. All animations will be 1 to 1.2 seconds, that is significantly faster for most power sets currently.

What you all need to understand is, if the dovetail /delay, whatever you want to call it after the cancel, is not 1 to 1.2 seconds, it is only going to slightly lower the 2.5x better damage that we jump cancelers do compared to other players. I am not trying to get a small reduction, and then them fix it again later. I would rather them fix it once and for all so that everyone can get on with adapting to the changes sooner, and the devs can get to balancing the power sets sooner as well. Anything less then the universal 1 to 1.2 second dovetail/delay is simply going to slightly reduce the 2.5x number, when the goal here is to get that 2.5x number as close to 1.0x for everyone.

Now the best way to do this is allow us to jump cancel anything right away like we do now, however, after we jump cancel all damage after the jump is canceled, like Banes venom shout in Legends. Then we should only be able to use beneficial abilities for 1 to 1.2 seconds after the initial jump. By not allowing us to use utility powers (damage powers) or weapon attacks, it would effectively prevent the mechanic for being used to front load damage, while leaving jump canceling the way it is now for support roles, and avoiding imminent death.

I hope this makes sense.

I think an even better route to appease most players and maintain balance is to ensure each power set has abilities that CAN be jump cancelled. Make Flame Cascade and Inferno JC abilities.

Instead of having the need to rebalance ALL power sets, the need would only be to balance a few abilities in each. This would give players who enjoy this more advanced gameplay mechanic the abiltiy to continue playing this way. And as for the others who do not like to play this way, nothing is stopping them now, but they WILL have weapon mastery in the coming months if they choose to continue QQ-ing.

This keeps everyone happy and still maintains balance as all power sets will have abilities that can benefit from this maneuver as opposed to some sets having a disproportionate amount. The balance from a developing standpoint would still exist as it does now.

More importantly, this would please everybody.

Giggles and I have been on the same page since this thread started. We may both seem like we're pushing for something harsh, but it's really a matter of picking a benchmark first so that we can then start comparisons onto damage. It's basically like wanting to get worst over with, so we can all start playing the game again.

Giggles and I both believe that unless you pick a substantial lapse period, that there will only be future adjustments that will be required. It's easier to trim backwards than to add on, once we've committed to testing. We still haven't gotten to the subject of finishing animation timing, and damage balance is still yet to come.

I think if we started with a widow of 0.9 to 1.1, that we could start to benchmark how effective or ineffective the dovetail was and where it needs further adjustment. I really don't think that it should go lower than 0.7 though, and like Giggles, I suspect that it may even have to nudged towards 1.2 to really match the null damage multiplier that the Devs seem to be shooting for.

You could, but then it doesn't address the Developer's issue of being unable to develop balanced content across the board, so long as Jump-Cancels are being used to front load damage as they illustrated, they cannot address any further content development. JC for damage purposes as we know it, simply is going to have to be radically changed or removed in its current form. It's their decision and other alternatives are simply not viable.

It's a shame they won;t go this route as it would provide the least altering changes for current players. The masking of attacks, or so many, is rarely viable in a pvp format where players are on the recieving end as even though the animation for the powers and weapon attacks are clipped, their vulnerability windows are not. Hence, want to take down a HL or Celestial DPS clipping, easy... just lunge. In addition, power supplies and the mechanics do no allow you to play this way in PVP at the level being discussed. It is solely a PVE issue. Which, for many, is why some think it is DPS QQ-ing.

Fact is, this will be a drastic change in the gameplay mechanics and speed of the game for a lot of players. One in which some players will not take lightly or agree with. For myself, the speed of this combat system and constantly trying to find optimum efficency is one of the more enjoyable challenges of this game. I would be truly disappointed if the combat returns to Inferno -> Fiery Weapon ->Fireburst (repeat) as a result of these proposed changes.

While some power sets benefit more greatly from JC as a form of clipping, fact still remains, the strongest power set in the game is Dual Wield and can keep on pace (but not beat) even the best HL clippers regardless of the power set used.

If they remove jump cancel or even nerf it to a degree, rage will hands down be the best dps power in the game causing even more imbalance...The few powers that compete with rage in example gadgets/hl heavily rely on jump cancels to keep up with rage in the damage department. So nerf jump cancel and nerf rage with it as well..

Listing off a half dozen people isn't the most acurate list in the world.

https://forums.station.sony.com/dcu...jump-canceling-solutions.194772/#post-2369221

Heres one of Giggles posts which reflect CCs view points. Notice the Ups to Downs. Didn't take a whole lot of effort to find a few more people who disagree with a large animation time, so again, unless want to go post by post from 140 plus pages in 3 seperate threads, my claim is as valid as anyone elses.

How is that cancelling anything though? Sounds like you're just trading one animation for another.

Which is to say it's not valid at all and thus pointless to make your claim in the first place. Thanks for pointing that out.

I told you that like a page back, perhaps if I made a list for you then you would have gotten it sooner.

The reason for the JC changes is so they can better balance weapons, powers *and content*; JC change itself won't bring the balance, but the viability to work on it. This was quoted and said a couple of times now...but just in case people missed it. Don't expect things to be as they are with only a JC dovetail change.

You made the claim in the first place...then you point out your claim is meaningless. I don't get you.

FYI, I just went back through the last 6 pages and many of the pro JC group have more negative votes than positive votes. Dianna's request to have it no more than 0.1 had 10 down votes and like one up vote.

The post I believe you were referring to from Giggles was like the only one of it's kind.

What claim did I make? I didn't make any claim, I agreed with Crappys observation of what the whole thread has become. You're reading what you want to see.

Wonderful, now only 144 more pages to go.

There is certainly a witch hunt going on here against JC. Nothing good will come out of it. Some people here are not even playing the middle game.

I mean the way you put it if you set JC to 1.2 that is almost the same as getting rid of JC IMO

.3 is better