W.I.P. Combat Balance - Jump Canceling Solutions

Fact.

I really have grave doubts that 0.3 will ever be acceptable to Tunso, Spytle, and the rest of the Dev team. It's just never gonna happen. Let's try and come up with some realistic numbers here instead of pipe dreams, okay?

My realistic number was anywhere between .5-.8 but they are still saying that .8 is unreasonable.(not devs, players are saying .8 is unreasonable)

becuase .8 is point .2 sec faster and there for pointless. Plus add in the other part of this 3 prong nerf with no taps after jcing or powers right after it. Even the slowest fan of jcing can blow .8 out the water on ps3. Hell spytles is doing like point five average in his vidieos and hes just now kinda getting it to were its starting to look good.

That's exactly what I am saying, too. I don't understand the balance speak as we've all seen how hard weapon mastery will hit in the demo video. Seems to me they are both pretty balanced already where as JC is steady sustained damage vs. Wpn Mstry being much much higher burst dmg.

As far as 2.5 times more dmg, this is likely true if Hard Light as without any jump cancelling it is one of, if not the, weakest dps class in the game. (Something players have complained about since it's release) While other power sets also benefit from JC, none so much as HL... It's not like the Epic Oddesy feat prior to any of the Origin Crisis nerfs was only achieved by a select few who leagues who JC. They were achieved using existing and fully acceptable clipping forms that took advantage of massive weapon imbalances, not JC.

I also don't understand speaking of JC as if players (specifically in pvp) are on the receiving end of JC abuse as the chaining of three or more abilities is not sustainable in pvp where someone would receive that. Nor the legends pvp speak of JC as you have limited power bars and no controllers... so you are talking about one or two moves. And also the vulnerability windows for moves that were jump cancelled still exist in their full form regardless if JC'd or not.

Seems much ado about nothing if you ask me, yet the rationale for getting rid of it is ever changing. I am very much against any changes to JC. It ads more to the game play mechanics, does not punish other players, and I think with wpn mastery, if players are upset that they dont want to JC but still want the numbers of those who do, which sounds a bit whiny if you ask me, but they can use the wpn mstery mechanic (or Solar Flare/DW charged throw as players currently do)

Which makes no sense. Sounds more like QQ or the T word if you ask me.

No it's not, .3 is nowhere near adequate enough. Remember the goal is to balance everything, .3 is a slight reduction, 1 to 1.2 seconds is a fix. We need a fix, not a band aid.

it just needs to be readable as spytle said. your on some other agenda

Wrong again. I'm proposing a fix not a band aid. I'm curious if you have been following this thread. The devs confirmed jump canceling is a loop hole. The devs confirmed that jump canceling was never intended to front load damage.

Therefore the only way to prevent jump canceling from being a tool to front load damage is to make all abilities work like Banes venom shout in legends, and cancel all dots or damage and PI's after the jump cancel. Why? Because you jump CANCELED it. Then also place a utility and weapon cool down of 1 to 1.2 seconds after the initial jump cancel.

This would effectively prevent jump canceling from being used as a tool to front load damage while allowing support roles to use it as they always have, and allowing us all to utilize jump canceling to avoid imminent death. Which is ironically the way the devs intended it to work all along.

Remember they are adjusting all animation times as well. So it is nowhere near as bad as it sounds.

i tell you what though....i think power should be balanced just like the weapon moves. the longer the animation the more damage you do. for prec based rage players the damage on retch isnt as important as the fast pi is. just cut dot size for shorter than 1s cancel to account for less than 1s animation? if the dot 1/3 the size to make up for using 1/3 animation time it would balance perfectly with other powers. fan's damage would need to be changed to a dot for this

how bout say for example. if im getting dots of 100 a tick for my might level, then i would get only 30 a tick if i jc at .3. this would mean you would have to wait the full 1s before you jc to get full 100 per tick damage @ XXXX might or else you get 30 per tick if you jc before 1s with a .3 minimum cap for the dovetail....how is that for a well balance solution

That is not what they are trying to do. They are trying to fix the 2.5x more damage jump canceled can put out. The only way to do this is make the dovetail equal to the new universal animation times 1 to 1.2 seconds as well as stripping all dots and effects after you CANCEL the power with a jump. Then to prevent us from canceling to front load damage, treat jump as a power on its own, and place a cool down on all utility powers and weapon attacks of 1 to 1.2 seconds as well, so that jump is only used to interrupt an animation to avoid imminent death, not to add on damage.

Keep in mind all animations will soon be 1 to 1.2 seconds, not long at all. So making the dove tail equal is the only way to keep jump canceling even with non jump canceling play styles on a damage front and bringing that 2.5x more damage closer to 1.0x. That is the goal here, a fix, not a band aid. Jump canceling to front load damage is a confirmed "loophole" as Spytle himself said.

so...according to you...balance is...when you jump cancel your dps stops utterly for 1.2 seconds? cant even use a utility power for that 1.2s why? you simply dont use logic at all.

You do know the difference between a utility and beneficial power right? Since it seems like you do not know these classifications, utility powers are any damage dealing power. Beneficial powers are instant power, heals, shields, etc. Did you notice how I didn't say a cool down should be placed on beneficial powers? That was intentional, so this change does not effect support roles. It only fixes the loophole that jump canceling assists in front loading damage.

The devs said jump canceling was not intended for front loading damage. Therefore my proposal solves that issue while also keeping it the same as it is now for support roles and not effecting them. We would all still be able to use beneficial powers. The only thing jump canceling would be used for is to quickly cancel an attack and avoid imminent death. That is sound logic, in line with what the devs are trying accomplish.

I think you should re read all the devs posts in here as I do not feel you are truly grasping the confirmed facts about jump canceling. I'll say it again, we need a fix, not a band aid. What I have proposed is a fix for the confirmed "loophole" that is jump canceling. My logic is extremely sound, trust me. There's nothing to be afraid of, this change to better balance this game. Don't fight change, embrace it.

but what i proposed levels the damage. if say 1s gives full damage its level with other 1s powers right? if jc before 1s then dot size is alse cut to .3/1 damage to equal time spent = damage done. make .3s the soonest you can jc so it cant be hidden. this solve the damage issue, the visibility issue, and the "feel of speed" issue the naysayers are complaining about. its called "happy middle ground"

You are missing the main point here, Jump Canceling is not intended to help aid in front loading damage. That is why Spytle called jump canceling to front load damage a "loophole". Your idea allows jump canceling to work the way it does now just at a reduced amount. I'm not trying to reduce the 2.5x damage to slightly less OP number. I am trying to bring it in line with the 1.0x damage of all sets.

I strongly suggest you go re read all the devs posts in this thread so you can fully understand what has been confirmed about how jump canceling should work. I'm not interested in a happy middle ground for people who like to use "loopholes". I'm interested in balancing the mechanics so this game can get closer to perfect balance. If they fix it properly the first time, there will be no need to revisits it later.

do the math 1x damage for 1x time = .3 damage for .3 time. that is not op or front loading.

But it is in the case of PIs like plasma Retch, Fear Gas, etc. Which is why I am proposing the 1 to 1.2 second delay after a jump cancel on all utility and weapon attacks. The only way to make it truly balanced is to ensure the jump cancel delay is the same delay as all other animations, which will all soon be a universal 1 to 1.2 seconds, and all of the players dots and PIs being stripped upon the initial cancel.

The point you continue to miss is that jump canceling was never intended to be used in conjunction with damage abilities, it was only meant to cancel an animation so we could avoid imminent death by either moving or using pig beneficial powers. Therefore, I am proposing this as a player with a Gadgets main for balance. The only agenda I have is a better balanced game.

idk the pi doesnt last very long on retch like it does with eruption. thats alot of stand around time for alot less when you compare those too powers. it would only make retch not worth using at all and only galling eruption would be viable pi

Or maybe Fan shouldn't be a channeled power!