The "GET GUD AT THE GAME" Crowd:

All of this is for naught if they don't follow through and find ways to attract new users. More, better advertising being a key component. I'm sure they want to level all of this out and tweak it before spending the money necessary to try to do that. When I enjoy this game, its the second best game I've ever played. Unfortunately, both of my favorite games have gone long stretches of time where they are just broken for me. I haven't seen an anti-clamper come up with anything else that could help this clear problem.

I don't. You replied and quoted me pointing out what *new* players are really looking for.

No it won't and this does not accomplish that even if it would. When is the last time you saw a new game and thought you'd try it out because it had "stat clamping"... "Oh that looks like a cool game, it has stat clamping" has never been said by anyone anywhere.

It's a 10 year old game. Of course it's winding down. That doesn't mean it ends tomorrow. It means it's slowly going into a custodianship phase of development where only the bare minimum staff is retained to maintain it. Bare minimum of development happens (no new powersets, no pvp fixes, no movement types, no graphics engine, no new systems, etc are all signs of this); just new missions getting added. EG7 bought DB because of the license they have for the IP. The game is just a cash cow of regular income and low cost to run, making it an income generating purchase. Buying it isn't an indicator that the game will be reinvested back into. Actual steps to attract players with what they're looking for would be a sign of that.

These changes make the game easier to maintain over time and are a cost saving measure, and aren't intended to attract new players. The game is not taking steps to solve the actual problem and instead using time/resources on doing something that hurts the existing players instead of attracting new players.

Which logical fallacy would that be?

1) Your example assumes there's a massive influx of new players leaving when there's no massive influx of players at all.

2) Your example assumes this mythical influx is leaving "because the game is too easy" (this is short form for experienced players one-shotting NPCs as you just described -- not sure what you think people meant when they said that). So effectively you're actually agreeing with me rather than arguing. And btw, your specific example is an example of griefing not a new player experience.

In reality, there are very few new players joining the game at all. They're looking around and leaving immediately because they don't see what they're looking for. The devs have released [questionable] data about this for years. New players basically never make it past the tutorial. So, they never see Zoom and they never team up with endgame players who can 1shot anything, generally speaking.

I'm not categorically denying there is a problem at all. I'm pointing out that you and people who believe what you believe have misread and misdiagnosed the problem and are treating symptoms of the problem instead of the actual problem.

Your experience is not representative of the majority of new players. That's a cognitive bias. And you're an existing player running an alt. Not a new player.

I've repeatedly explained how to cater to the wants and needs of the new player, like here:

And here's a more detailed breakdown of the issues and how they need to be addressed here: click here.

It's a 10 year old game. They aren't going to start a meaningful advertising campaign for it. The only way to attract new players is as I stated above. This is a 10 year old game and no one is starting it unless it already has the features they're looking for to start with. Joining a game that old and hoping they add these things *someday* down the road would be silly. In fact, the game not having these features already is a sign that it's been mismanaged and a red flag to a new player.

Then why are they still hiring?

Then why are they still hiring?

They still need people to fill specific roles that become vacated over time until they shutter down the road.

Notice they never replaced their Game Director when Chris Cao left. And they never replaced their Creative Director after SJ left. These are 2 key / critical roles that signal the direction of the game. Over time the game is run with minimal staff or a "skeleton crew" using only the essential staff needed to maintain the game. If you look at the postings there isn't a posting for either role -- meaning, they don't intend to replace those positions at all.

How can you guys fail Tier 1 Gorilla Grodd?

A lot of people assuming that this update was the miracle cure to player retention and attracting new players. I hate to say it but there's a lot more important issues plaguing this game that are severely impacting player retention and player attraction.

Probably because they don't have a gaming chair like you. /s

[quote="Apollonia, post: 4434564, member: 393561"

Which logical fallacy would that be?

1) Your example assumes there's a massive influx of new players leaving when there's no massive influx of players at all.

2) Your example assumes this mythical influx is leaving "because the game is too easy" (this is short form for experienced players one-shotting NPCs as you just described -- not sure what you think people meant when they said that). So effectively you're actually agreeing with me rather than arguing. And btw, your specific example is an example of griefing not a new player experience.

In reality, there are very few new players joining the game at all. They're looking around and leaving immediately because they don't see what they're looking for. The devs have released [questionable] data about this for years. New players basically never make it past the tutorial. So, they never see Zoom and they never team up with endgame players who can 1shot anything, generally speaking.

I'm not categorically denying there is a problem at all. I'm pointing out that you and people who believe what you believe have misread and misdiagnosed the problem and are treating symptoms of the problem instead of the actual problem.


Your experience is not representative of the majority of new players. That's a cognitive bias. And you're an existing player running an alt. Not a new player.
[/quote]

1.) The logical fallacy is most similar to a hasty generalization. Saying "noone, everyone, nothing, everything, etc" is in almost all scenarios a logical fallacy as just one instance where someone did so disproves your statement. Something I've been taught since I can talk is to avoid these blanket types of statements. After all, if you believe that "because the game is too easy" is equivalent to what I was arguing, you proved your own point false because I left because of that very reason.

2.) There isn't an influx of new players. As I stated lower, if they do not follow this up with spending money or doing things to attract new players then this is all for naught and they quite literally shot themselves in the foot for zero reason, which is why I reject your reasoning for why they did it. It makes no logical sense if they have accepted they will never have a userbase again...why would they mess with the game so substantially? It makes no sense whatsoever, if anything its created more work for them.

3. Its not necessarily griefing, griefing portends that the player intended for the other players experience to be ruined by one shotting said NPC. Griefing requires intent. It does, inescapably, harm the experience for those attempting to go after that iconic bounty. One scenario that is eliminated by the stat clamp.

4. This isn't a new problem. It didn't start in the past six months. It started 7-8 years ago when power creep started to overwhelm the game. What do you find is the cause of the symptoms that I believe are harming the game?

5. I don't think we can know that anyones experience is representative of the majority of new players. Most new players that do find their way in here, never interact, never come to the forums, they play for a few hours, maybe a few days and leave.

[quote="Apollonia, post: 4434564, member: 393561"

I've repeatedly explained how to cater to the wants and needs of the new player, like here:


And here's a more detailed breakdown of the issues and how they need to be addressed here: click here.




It's a 10 year old game. They aren't going to start a meaningful advertising campaign for it. The only way to attract new players is as I stated above. This is a 10 year old game and no one is starting it unless it already has the features they're looking for to start with. Joining a game that old and hoping they add these things *someday* down the road would be silly. In fact, the game not having these features already is a sign that it's been mismanaged and a red flag to a new player.[/quote]

There have been red flags for new players for a long time, even while they were more active. I was here when they released the last power-set. I realize how long its been since then. But, then again, I ask, why make such huge changes if the devs have truly accepted that the player base is gone and all they are trying to do is mitigate cost and lessen the amount of work they need to do to maintain the game until they just close it down?

Do you think Daybreak is just going to give up on the genre altogether? Do you think that a dwindling MMO is going to give them the capital and momentum they would need to create a new one? That the statistics of the game now could pay for the upgrade to the engine which would be a monumental task? If this doesn't change how the game works, regardless of whether it makes you or those who believe as you do mad, this game isn't long for relevance. It'll stop making money and they will close it.

If I were daybreak, I certainly wouldn't just throw up my hands and say I give up. Which is why I believe this is actually an attempt to improve the new user experience that once it is tweaked they will start to do something to try to attract new players more aggressively. You can believe how you want to, but I came back. I'm having fun again. If things continue going this way maybe I sub again and dump the other game that is having problems that occupies my time so that I can play this game with my son as he doesn't care for the other one.

I for one hope that you aren't right about the reasons this is being done. Because I enjoy this game as it is playing now. Its always been one of those huge potential but frustrating experiences games. And the evidence I have that stat clamping can work is that the largest, fastest growing MMO that exists uses it as well.

Another thing I will say... is that the devs have certainly heard the complaints. As much as I feel it is the wrong long term decision to put marks back in endgame content... I can see why the decision was made. I still believe its a short term positive and long term negative thing. They didn't like the endgame content participation rate. So they aren't actively just trying to "screw the existing playerbase".

You lost me. I quoted you saying that the devs need to do what the current player base wants. You said it. I said they are trying to make it more appealing for new players in order to grow the base. You seem to carry yourself like only your opinion is valid and correct and everyone else is wrong and ignorant. I'm done here.

You’re Welcome

Final Fantasy 14 is almost as old as DCUO, maybe even a little older. And yet it is going from strength to strength. Despite NOT being 'free to play', despite outdated graphics.





The issue lies with the DI company and company decisions. Decisions to add an unnecessary and expensive ally system. Decisions to make the game pay to win and expect players to spend literal $1000s on artifacts. Decisions to have no QA testers and expect every remaining player paying for this game to have a PC so they can go on test and fix the game for the devs - and there's no guarantee any feedback - even if regarding game breaking bugs - will be addressed. Decisions to rush and release content when it isn't ready. Decisions to release more micro-transactions over the thought of fixing bugs and the game itself. Decisions to hire more devs that may be more competent at the job, to compete even slightly with the other MMO competition out there. Decisions to abandon PVP altogether when once upon a time that was a very significant part of DCUO.

The devs expect far too much from the players with so little in return from the game, apart from less money in your wallet.

Regardless of whether you are new/returning, or a casual or elite player, there are plenty of red flags with DCUO that we choose to ignore because one thing both the community and the dev team has in common is that we love this game and want the best for it. What that means however is different to so many and continues to be so due to the many changes the game has undergone and many players will perceive things differently.

Many things in the House of Legends game update were a welcome change, but it will take far more than that to turn DCUO around at this stage. Playing FFXIV the last few months has made me realise the potential DCUO could have been with the right minds and the right company. Besides sub/the collection I haven't spent anything on FFXIV since I started playing. Have I missed out? No. But I enjoy the game perfectly. The story, the music, the boss fights, the interesting game design. I experience all of that and more and I don't feel penalised for spending less $.

FFXIV *is* DCUO's main competitor at the moment. And it is winning for many good reasons. And there are many lessons that DCUO can learn (they kinda have a little with some of the HoL updates) if there is to be a brighter future for this game.

I really hope there is a future for DCUO where cinematics return, the music and storytelling goes up a few notches, the content design is improved, and nothing releases anything less than perfect. Trailers for upcoming updates with millions of views. But it is a dream.

Time will tell. But from my own experience, I am now going in to clamped content. It will be after I do my dailies if there's time yeah. But I will run them on the weekends and I most likely will once I get to the end of a dlc and start being antsy waiting for the next dlc. The only real mistake I see with it now is that they even made a "new" dlc. Should have just left FP as end game. We all would have been done or close to it and given this more attention. So personally, I think this will become a widely used thing towards the end of every dlc. That's actually a great thing.

I just hope its enough. For all of my going back and forth on the game... I keep coming back for a reason. Because this game has the best idea behind it of anything. The customization, the stories, the amount of content.... yeah the graphics are a bit dated, but its not something that can't still be appealing. They've actually done a ton of work to improve the graphics, they're just running into an engine created wall with them right now.

Also, this is one of the few games you can play on a somewhat old PC and still survive. So I can play on PC and on my PS4. Thats a huge bonus.

Have faith. This game has survived thru some serious blow back. It just did it again this week lol. I know it seems like adding source back to end game is a bad decision but it really isn't. 1 person just posted that him and his 30 alts are very happy about that decision. Almost all those toons would have been shelved if that change wasn't reversed. That's one player. There are a ton of similar types out there

You quoted me explaining what new players were looking for in the game and why they were leaving when they don't find it after trying the game. You then specifically asked me how catering to existing players helps new players; it's a bait and switch. I was answering your question and the answer has nothing to do with what existing players want and any overlap is just a coincidence. It is what *new* players want and are looking for.

I'm speaking with *confidence* while you share your opinions and feelings. It's because I'm not sharing opinions and understand the industry and topic very well due to years of professional experience in it and in related work. If that upsets you that you got into an argument with someone who knows what they're talking about, that's on you. I don't have to apologize for knowing things other people don't know. Bye.

Wow. Ok. Never engaging again. The attitude here is absolutely unreal.

I use a chair that I stole from my mother's kitchen.