Reduced sourcemarks in fos3, why?

So if a portion of the community doesn't agree with a change we're just supposed to what just sit here and sulk silently? If the players liking or disliking a change is of no consequence then why is there a public forum? Are you saying our thoughts and opinions don't matter whether they do or don't align with development's intentions?

I'm sitting here presently farming Nth Metal caches in Gotham as I'm sure other people are doing the same in Metropolis. What happens when someone at the studio decides that they don't like that and they want you to queue up and lock Nth Metal Detectors from working in open world content? What happens when someone at the studio decides you don't deserve a choice in accepting or declining your Omnibus runs? When happens when someone decides that open world weeklies are rewarding too many marks? What happens when something you expect to have upon logging in is suddenly, for no real reason, taken away and you're given a non-answer as a response?

Whether it's 10 marks or 6 marks or 1 mark it doesn't matter because either way none of it improves or hurts the game. That's the point you refuse to grasp or maybe it's just easier to play Mepps advocate? And now when the next bonus Source Marks week comes around, you'll see a different kind of spam group in LFG consumed with something else that doesn't involve the precious failure that is Omnibus. And then they'll take marks away from that. Players will either move on to something else. And then they'll take marks away from that. What was the point of removing CR relevancy if they just keep taking the rewards away?

I don't need you to entertain me Proxy, there's clowns here at Ace Chemicals.

Nice try Reinheld, lol

You don't have to explicity say something to say that very same thing implicitly, of which you're still doing in your above post, take for example your mention of "1000's" of marks, yet again an attempt to try and incorrectly portray the previous system of rewarding people adequately.

What's even funnier is you're now trying to suggest we go back to the old system, loot locks and relevancy and all, is it, because we could get 1000's of marks... You're a hoot Reinheld.

Take a look at some of my other posts in this thread though, you'll see what I think with respect to a few of your other points

That was not the point I was making, when I quoted you, you can talk all you want about the particular topic at hand, I'd expect nothing less, but when you attempt to conflate the topic with other unrelated issues that aren't the discussion that isn't really helpful to the topic at hand. We don't need to discuss whether you dislike PVP or dislike membership changes.

We're talking here about whether or not reducing the source marks from FOS3 or for that matter any instance like it, is justified.

Your Nth Metal cache point is again a strawman because you've attempted to put forward an illogical argument that you know is illogical and portray it as a counter argument to the one I'm expressing here.

And honestly, I hope people do start spamming a new instance like necro in 5 minutes, forming custom LFG groups en-masse, because all you'll do is reinforce the very reason why this change was made and to act shocked

And remember when I said in this thread players have to be forced to be spread out in to the game, won't do it voluntarily etc until utterly forced, you'll have proven my point also.

Points all of which I've said myself in this thread.

This isn't aimed at you - but people in general need to start being a bit honest with themselves.

We all know that every time there's a bonus week, the entire week is consumed with FOS3 spams and nothing else, If we're being honest, we know it's not good for the game, let's be honest' the players are taking the piss and it shouldn't come as any surprise that the devs will look at the instance and think "hmm let's smack that".

They'd only have to spend 5 minutes in game during a bonus week to come to that conclusion, it was left too long absolutely agreed, but this change is entirely unsurprising.

My other reply was quite long, so I'll try to make this short(er).

I personally didn't learn in random runs. I joined a league and ran with friends who cared enough to give me some pointers...and I learned a lot on my own. Until there is a proper tutorial, that's still the best way to learn IMHO. Most people do NOT learn from observation....just run TSW randomly and watch the Perpetua fight for evidence of that.

Don't care about the 4 marks....AT ALL. Thought I mentioned that once or twice.

FOS3 is NOT the only piece of content being run. This is as false as the 'one shotting bosses' argument. I run a bunch of omni raids for the box and believe me...it sometimes takes me 10-20 opt outs to land in FOS3 or DD if that's what I'm gunning for, or other 'acceptable' runs. Sometimes I even give up and just take whatever shows up (gasp)...those are 'fun'.

I think the willingness of the vet players to 'teach' new players is 100% reflective of how much 'busy' work we have. Like it or not, the clamp has made us all busier...either because we are now running old content we never ran, or we are running slower runs where facerolls existed before(you know...all those 'one shot' bosses). Add to that the artificial 'need' for source that was added to drive the 'need' for running that content (or spams) and it all equals out to less time to take someone under your wing, work on old feats, etc...

Sorry, but any argument to 'make' us run things we don't want to is just dopey. Make us want to run the content...to your point, maybe MORE marks would help, a few shineys...a rotating 'bonus' opportunity...maybe they won't. I can tell you removing 4, 6 or 10 marks from the 'quick' runs won't make this endgame player run MOM, BBS or Khandaq any more than 0 times a month (unless I'm chasing a feat).

Please don't project your hangups or guilt on to other players. If you were just being selfish with your previous stance, that does not necessarily apply to everyone else. I have carried so many people through runs to let them 'learn' things(you know...practice), get feats or just get into the content they never saw, I lost count. Much, MUCH less so this last year.

The only other negative I've pointed out with the game in regards to this track is that a proper tutorial and system of ensuring people get SOME education on the game before wandering into said random runs....would do more good than the random runs themselves. I don't believe that is unwarranted.

This last bit I'd agree with completely...except YOUR or MY definition of what is 'positive' is not 100% universal. I can realize this....can you?

I'm someone who a few times a week could put up 8 hours of play in this game a day. During those days if I came across a "Doomsday" or "Fos3" raid, it would be minimal. The vast majority of time spent in Omnibus random raids is taken up by waiting, and failed runs.

I mentioned earlier in this discussion that the occasional quick raids (in comparison) and ten marks was a great buffer against the frustrations of having wasted so much time otherwise. Consider it a reward for being active and subjecting yourself to a system that is less than perfect.

In watching this thread I can see that the majority of people who have weighed in find this change to be a negative. I of course agree.

I can tell you this, I haven't made a conscious choice to play less, but since this has been instituted I've felt drained when considering play and found myself re-evaluating what I do with my free time.

The change to six from ten marks isn't THAT drastic, but for me, I think, it's the unintended dismissal and detachment for the players experience that has me just not wanting to bother.

I've been here since launch day, I've seen all of what has happened over that time. No doubt this feeling like it has in the past, will also pass. However, I can't help but believe that these things DO add up. Perhaps not for me, but I tend to think for others and for the overall community in general, this will result in less people playing.

Marks are already to hard to come across for all of the things required. I think people will simply stop trying.

- Peace.

The point of a video game is to play as much of the game as possible, the developers want people playing as much of the game as possible.

The part you're not realizing is that there's more people in this game with differing needs outside of your own that you'd rather seemingly not acknowledge.

If we take newer players for example it serves no purpose for them to want to run T4 alerts only to sit queue forever as an example, while everyone else in the game is off farming FOS3 or whatever FOTM raid is kicking about - it's counter productive to the wider health of the game.

You're dismissing their needs so that you can have your own. Veteran players most frequently only want one thing from omnibus/EEG and that's source marks and they want them as quickly as possible and as effortlessly as possible.

The developers need to however balance that desire with the counter desire that they also want these players out there "helping other people" in whatever capacity might happen. they want people playing with each other throughout the whole game, not some of the game.

Whether you learn visually or not isn't the point, You're also wrong about saying "most people don't learn by observation" - 65% or more of people learn visually. - look it up.

The problem with TSW as well is that these players aren't getting enough mechanic exposure and running FOS3 until it's dead in the ground certainly isn't going to help that cause either.

They're not unrelated. These are all handled by the same studio, yes? Someone there makes decisions on what gets fixed and what does not get fixed, yes? We don't have to discuss it if you don't want to.

They took marks away from FoS3 and DD because they don't want people going there too often, yes or no? Using that same ideology, someone might decide they don't want us spending too much time in open world Gotham or Metropolis one-shotting mobs for caches, logical or illogical? I'm getting the same reward for a fraction of the effort so maybe they take that away too yeah?

So maybe they should stop handing out unattuned gear to new players like it was Halloween candy? Stop handing out free CR skips every year? Maybe stop rushing everyone to endgame and they might have players spread out a little more to improve queue times?

Again, I'm starting to question your reading comprehension. Your partial quote missed a big segment about "or 'relevant' content". I never said I got 1000's solely from old content. Please read the whole line before you quote part of it.


And when the clamp and changes hit I probably already had 40K+ marks lying around between just 5 or 6 toons. And I don't replay. Call me a 'hoot' is fine, but calling me a liar is different. Just because maybe you weren't good at getting marks prior to the changes, doesn't mean everyone was bad at it. I would 100% be fine with a reversion to the old way...or better (as I've always stated) an 'option' to run either way so we can choose. I didn't need the marks in old stuff...I got plenty from endgame content. I generally roll 999 on 8 toons every new DLC currency 'conversion'. The few 'old' runs I used to hit up to grab a few extras, I did so because they were quick and as such paid well for the time investment. 3 min FOS3 for 3 marks, 2 min Paradox for 5, 5 or 6 min in Gates for 5....yeah, that was adequate for my time. I've never said anything different and yes...I'm explicitly saying that.

Most old runs I ran were NOT for the marks....hence why I never cared to get them in there post clamp. For a lot of people it was the MAIN reason they wanted the changes (not to 'help' the game or any new players.....just themselves).

I'm still waiting for you to find 1 post where I even implied I wanted no clamp + no loot locks. Find one that is even close...should be easy, right? However, please read it before quoting so we can avoid something like the above 'partial' quote that attempts to mis-lead the reader.

Gee....here I thought the point of a video game was entertainment. Thanks for educating me. Guess that's why in this game we've had less and less entertainment over the years....it was never the point apparently.

Still waiting for that reference to some past quote though.....as much as I enjoy the dodges...I'd really like to see it.

The issues you're discussing are unrelated, you're guilty of conflating matters in an effort to dismiss the one you don't like got priority.

By your logic nothing can be done until you decide it can be done or until something you deem worthy can be done from your list, if something isn't on your list it shouldn't be touched, you can discuss the merits of other outstanding issues, in a different thread, otherwise what you're doing is commonly referred to as "derailment"

Yes, there is someone at Daybreak making a decision on what gets fixed, this might come as a shock to you (and perhaps some others) but it's their game and it's call ultimately what they choose is a priority, whether we're happy about it or not.

Continue to advocate for the changes you want, but you don't get to decide something didn't deserve improvement just because you didn't want it.

Nth Metal detectors are working as they should within the eco system of the game, you're comparing something not affecting the eco system with something that is.

FOS3 and DD marks were reduced because the priority players were giving to those instances was disrupting the eco system the developers wanted, they didn't do it just to selectively piss you off.

all aged MMO's offer skip tokens, because there's motivation to get people leveled up as least in part so they can begin playing with their friends, there's not actually an issue with this in fact it's healthy for the game as a premise because it means new players stick around rather than wallowing around, getting stuck at lower levels and then leaving.

This then means the developers have to create a system that motivates those players to move backwards as well as at the same time forward. This becomes infinitely easier by creating the eco system that motivates all players to do so to ensure that new players and old players a like play as much of the game as possible to help each other.

FOS3 was disrupting that eco system - it really isn't rocket science lol.

Written a year ago, was right. Better late than never. https://forums.daybreakgames.com/dcuo/index.php?threads/episode-41-early-end-game.316934/page-14

The Last Laugh.

It is amazing how the tune changes. LOL

They're unrelated to you. You don't get to decide what I can and can not correlate. If you don't like what I have to say than stop replying.

And that's fine but (and this isn't directed at you since you're not on the payroll) if this poorly thought out decision or yet another poorly thought out decision turns out to not go as you had hoped, please don't act surprised.

Maybe you could point me in the direction of where on here there was an active discussion of FoS3 and DD disrupting this "ecosystem" you keep bringing up because all I see is this thread. So as far as anyone here can tell, these changes appear sudden and unprovoked. And it sends a message that anything that appears to be working as intended can be taken away without need for beforehand discussion and for whatever reason they want to invent. I'm not pissed off with them taking marks away. I'm disappointed they chose not to be transparent about their intentions since transparency is only something discussed but never practiced. I'm disappointed they chose to waste time on something trivial when they make excuses that time is something they can not waste.

The ecosystem comment was made by mepps himself so it’s not out of no where. And he clearly explained what he meant.

Let me ask you this. Just the last spotlight episode (wonderverse) were people running the WV raid for SMs or FoS3/DD? I’ll answer that for you. FoS3/DD. Those 2 raids were being run more than content that was giving double marks. Not really sure why people are surprised this happened. HH marks were nerfed because that’s all people ran and it was using the Omni ques. And these 2 raids were more lucrative than a raid under a spotlight.

Does that not prove to people why they did it? They didn’t just pull that out of there rears. If those weren’t nerfed what would people run more, the Cou or fos3?

Does it suck that the marks were nerfed? Yes. But it’s actually logical on why they were nerfed.

this

What part would you like me to unpack? Let's just go with this. There's no reading comprehension issue, you're just being disingenuous in an attempt to portray the situation as something that it isn't. Don't worry I know you won't admit that, in fact I expect you to entirely come back and proclaim it's impossible.

We've been through this same rodeo in our numerous debates about the clamp system.

Under the previous system, the relevancy window restricted your source marks over a week, over the space of a year a character would have earned maybe 10k source marks if you farmed everything, but you're okay with that? Under the new system, even using the nerfed FOS3 you can earn 10k source marks in 55 days playing 5 hours a day, yet there's all this outrage... You've got to see why this is all laughable...

This is why I think you're being "flexible" with the truth Reinheld, because you're guilty (and you're notorious at it, no disrespect) of omitting key facts about the previous system that made it an absolute heap of dog **** but aren't convenient to your portrayal of it.

You've said in numerous posts that you wouldn't mind if they went back to the old system. The issue with this and where the implication comes in is that you know this isn't possible.

The game has fundamentally changed in how it structures the rewards for source marks, there's more ways to spend source marks now, demonstrably so, that a reversion to the previous system simply isn't possible because the relevancy window would prevent anyone from farming enough source marks. If you think the nerf to FOS3 has lead to an outcry, just you try going back... I've just shown the atrocity of the previous system above - I hope you're comprehending it also

Predictably what you'll ask for next will be an AQS system... This however won't work, because again it disrupts the eco system. The developers clearly want the community playing omnibus together, not off in little segmented populations, if they can help it.

Since you can't complete the 8 man content yourself, you'll still need friends, so this then begs the question, why not just use omnibus to fill the spots in the queue rather than forcing it with less? Why is it a problem to take some randoms along with you?

On the flip side if your goal was to use AQS to solo queue then the only way you're beating that content in any reasonable fashion is if you come straight back to the explicit statement "full loot, no clamp, please".

The comment was made after the fact so this whole spiel about FoS3 and DD upsetting an imaginary ecosystem did in fact come out of nowhere. Unless you can show me where there was an active dev discussion about FoS3 and DD from before yesterday....

Ok and? Did that prohibit you from playing the game at all?

From my understanding that raid was actually broken and giving more marks than it originally used to.

That´s your opinion, the simple truth is...they seem to found out, that destroys the ecosystem, however its only a start. And believe me, they aren´t players, for them its business and it damage their business. If they dont make the desired cashflow, then it doesnt matter what the experience is for everyone, cause that would lead to a game shutdown.

Im not open up this book again, it should be simple logics. Or do you really believe this change hasnt a business intention? Then you´re naive. And again, you only going to shot your own leg.

Correct, at that particular point in time I would've sided with others in this thread and at that juncture I disagreed with you. I've now changed my view.

In the past I was also rabidly anti clamp, I've now changed my view. This is what 'adults' do...



Thanks for showing that I'm far more reasonable to deal with when ultimately hoping to be flexible in my views, unlike the others in here, who still disagree with you